[0:00]" Our number three Dennis and Callahan Michael Holley alongside about a month and a half maybe two months ago we were very pleased to have -- our studio a couple of guests who really provided some very compelling. And in my estimation Michael important radio you know we were talking earned run averages here we weren't talking -- the should run harder down the first base. -- we were talking about football's concussion crisis in no particular order of Chris Liwienski wrote the book called head games football concussion prices and certainly three time Super Bowl winning linebacker dominant pitchers Ted Johnson needs no introduction in these parts of both men have agreed to join us again this morning in the studio. This coming the morning after HBO. -- what can best be described as an emotional an eye opening and -- some regards heartbreaking piece on real sports last night a christmas you to get to see -- again first of all you're you're your assessment of what the rest of the world saw last night on HBO real sports in terms of getting you or -- out there about what has happened in the NFL and what's really not happening that should be -- start with you."

[1:07]" I think this the best illustration thus far especially visually of of what's going on in terms of what's happening to the players and how ugly. And terrible this this problem can be seeing the guys with full blown dementia seeing guys crossing over. With early dementia with into in case of gene Atkins -- the first time going public that his memory is just. Disappearing the age -- 42. And then also seeing the NFL and complete denial saying there's absolutely zero evidence this occurs cause -- football even though. There's indisputable evidence as."

[1:42]" As stunning as some of the examples were if you watch some of the guys we use to watch on the football field be interviewed -- and -- last night I think the thing that stood out in my mine was the second point that you made and that was the doctor for the NFL doctor -- I believe this was commission to put together a study for the NFL. Is complete -- that every single question Bernie Goldberg asked him about. Evidence about dementia about early onset alzheimer's about memory loss about headaches about depression. Now no no no no without any operation elaborate -- compassion just it was it was almost -- if that's the kind of stonewalling. You in the research for your book and Ted you wish you trying to it took to raise the profile of people who who suffer these injuries if that's got to stonewalling you are seeing from the NFL. You're up against quite an opponent here."

[2:31]" That's a monster that's it's -- in but you know it's -- as they sit in the -- last -- it's a grassroots effort and with Chris you know. Kind of common Meehan and helping me out then in the book in and then that would what I -- was amazing what I think was. -- of the event that Saturday emotions when under orders that is alive who -- Chris mason called the family. Ask him to do not -- on his brain. And when I heard out who ordered the findings of that I was. It but I couldn't nor myself you know 'cause I knew something. Was was wrong with me and I just in order wasn't in has been have a name to it Chris put a name to it and now hopefully guys that are playing now may now and they feel all the things that you know we were talking we're talking about you feel we have a concussion Veigh know to make the right decision when to put -- and a compromise position."

[3:25]" Chris do we start a baseline for this conversation here in terms of well what doctor Cantu and talk to that you work closely whip says about repeated concussions the incidents the -- you know if after that three -- three times more likely to have depression after three concussions or five times more likely to have -- alzheimer's can we sort of baseline discussion here from what our players like -- players like Mike Webster -- long and -- into going to talk -- later in the segment are dealing with here and and and are at risk from in the NFL."

[3:56]" Sure that what we're what we're finding out here is that a lifetime of repeated concussions causes basically. Plaques to build up beat your brain and they actually showed images from from under waters brain in in the program where each of these plaques start to just kill neurons and and cause you to start suffering from symptoms of dementia which can cause all sorts of issues cognitive disorders. Major depression you know guys are suffering from insomnia and -- have emotional problems. And what is it that we don't know exactly why cause -- certain people but it's we're seeing an earlier in earlier people 40s30s and so that the discussion basically is what can we do now to prevent this happening from a knowledge NFL players are finding it more and more players higher higher risks the more -- to get -- you are. At risk for this very very ugly."

[4:56]" Ugly disease Teddy said during -- piece on HBO that you went 11 days without taking a shower and brushing your teeth and leaving your house. When you're going through this. -- during those 11 days what what is what is going through your mind are you very conscious of the fact that hey I haven't taken a shower -- repeat that left the house what do you think."

[5:16]" Yeah and I'm -- of freeware you know you know so where a guy anyways so absolutely calm. Of the hardest part for me was there was no answer. Usually you know there's certain steps you know it's like this if I wanted to get a college scholarship by knew I had to work out in speaker grades and train hard and and then maybe -- get his scholarship and the other certain -- he you know goals he want to -- you know how to get there. This I did not know how to give help to get to where I am today I had a lot of robots try to lot you know different. People out there honestly do doctors don't know what this is all about -- one but he one doctor saying one. Treatment plant and one seeing the complete opposite as patient you have no clue who believe mean that you get you know everybody's got their own agenda so as a patient I was very disheartened to Tennessee you know doctor's -- that you know can take you -- student you know patient starter or the number one priority but that's not necessarily Jason and the -- you know patient today."

[6:23]" You know attended there are two insightful pieces I've written about you simultaneously one that in the New York Times won by Jackie mcmullen in the Boston globe. After that piece that was published. Did you hear from a former teammates former coaches what was the response like after the as a --"

[6:40]" I get I mean that. That he's coming out just kind of -- frame of mind you know I felt like I was I I've helped some I mean that's really. Why am even talk -- right now and you -- to discuss my stuff is. Is -- there's somebody out there that's saying gosh I don't know exactly what he's talking about but. On absolutely you know Pete Carroll you know he called me I mean it wouldn't have talked to Pete in so long -- all of you know. You know Slade McGinest Pfeiffer you know Bledsoe all all those guys. You know guys that I once -- with years ago Todd Collins. Com American go on and on you know Eric Mangini from the jets is. -- you know huge support and end of the hardest part for me is of the people but I love and care about the most part of this. When I'm struggle with is -- ten nicely so. When the people that I love admire the most when they don't hear from me. They don't know what to make of it and that's that's something and it's it's been enough heart for reasons I've been at a communication a lot of people."

[7:47]" Ted it would seem to me that a player in the National Football League has has two areas that he needs to understand in and and really get a grasp on. And that is knowing the effects of these concussions and an end what it happens what happens to you if you go back in that too quickly. But isn't the second one dealing with. The culture that is the National Football League because when you were here a couple of months ago you know we had two or three caller that Ted when they had to do the blue Jersey that's that you were good and clear for contact. What did you put up your hands and I don't know I just had a caution the day before yesterday. People don't understand the culture can you can you address that at the second aspect of it -- absolutely."

[8:22]" On when I was presented the with some when the predicament saviors of blue Jersey. My life flash before my eyes you know like guys like in my family if I don't put this on you know fight because I got -- new team. -- like -- here you know and by the way you -- very well established and well respected -- you want some trauma team and that's that was what was you know. That was what. It was was -- into me so. Just to be put in that situation people -- that happens all time I'd never seen and -- and on I was not I was not -- play. That was I was but the doctors did not clear deployed that was that was a coach's decision alone. And you know -- you know Ted's big boy he can he could say no I could of and then face possibly you know being cut into the NFL they dont have to give your reason for firing him they just fire you know and so. I knew that and that's and that's that's the way it was in even at that I mean there's a lot of things that proceeded back but that an event that I knew. I was not on the grounds with mine goes up and so on mommy decision put the the blue Jersey on and you know and first black."

[9:32]" First place ice nice some collusion and honestly I was never say enough that it -- what why do you think they gave the blue Jersey what was -- trying to accomplish. That bad you have to ask those bouncer. You know that only he knows you know that answer so I you know I can't do his minded and today was mistaken but you know you have to ask -- way and they prepare for both Chris and Ted what do you think the responsibility is that the NFL players' association. When this information is presented to them. What should they do."

[10:03]" Well I you know it's not be absolutely it's the scenario yeah the only absences these cards of doctor cancer you. I think it's on onset of its appalling I was Rosario player representative for three terms. And I saw the politics it was is that's played within the union so you know they they I think the union relies on the fact that there's so much turnover was going to be new rep you know -- every year. There's an executive committee of about 11 guys honestly there there -- guys that make the decisions that. That the two reps from every team it's it's the guys that gene has his you know. As close with and then -- make offices -- I think -- absolutely upon him you really -- the NFL PA and the players are so. Not connected -- beat me cases that what you teach a union and its players should be."

[10:55]" At all what while there is a long road for both of -- and and people -- in your camp to go since we last talked in this very studio the NFL's announced a summit is being held on June 19 if you would -- give -- an evaluation of a what's supposed to happen at that summit and and is this a good positive thing that starting the NFL on the right road."

[11:14]" Sure -- announced summit inviting all the team doctors and trainers -- to every team to Chicago on June 19 where you'll also tend. And they invited all the top critics including doctor can't to -- bills start can -- school it's doctor bill bars to present all of the outside information to -- evidence -- does not exist is can be presented to a -- in the NFL committee. So they're not going to be able to say. It doesn't exist anymore almost plausible that I -- honestly believe they'll only get away with -- Kasten said because they have haven't read this stuff -- in the studies have seen the slide to these sprains of Mike Webster and -- and and Andre waters. So it is a step because they won't real estate does existing. But it's it's not going to change and make the game safe for necessarily if they don't act on it and also even if the doctors do know what's going on what I'm hearing from the league from here from players right now especially individual players. Is that where actually right now would take we've taken a step backwards at the NFL local terms of actual safety for players because now because -- we've done like the worked Americans made I think that things better effort for our kids. But at the NFL level teams -- so where -- concussions have long term consequences and you're more likely get more discussions we've had them despite with the NFL's research says. That teams don't want to sign guys who had concussions especially Dan Morgan situation get a huge roster bonus coming up an economists agree give you incentive based contract there's other guys there signing because if concussion histories. So now the players know that they're going to go to the fall scared to report concussions. As some guys are gonna get -- we know that they need to get out of the game when they get concussions and rest but now guys know of the important questions they're gonna get caught it I can do that yet they're not going to get the money they need. So the NFL it's called summit. For -- player personnel guys and their coaches to say look this is about making these guys not turn into. People would -- be taking care of by the wives 50 years old. You know this isn't about just your -- you're damn bottom line"

[13:16]" joining us on the phone lines from his home in Texas of the man who argument of the you know last night HBO real sports his name is -- active seasons early 40s he played safety. I believe for eight years for the New Orleans Saints two years further -- Miami Dolphins if you watch the program last night a gene in a very courageous performance it came forward and added his name to the list of people who have suffered concussions and are now dealing with the after effects -- I was very touched by by your inclusion in this -- last night and I'm wondering if the motivation to help other people as as -- just set on our radio program here knowing that that he can help other people were still playing in the game and other people were just out of the game was part of your motivation for being courageous in coming forward here urging."

[13:57]" Well no my my motivation was started the try to we will throw me mom I didn't I didn't know -- me they take. Ten years ago I know I have some issues that don't bailiwick but I -- no way to issues with comic though I was very much is trying to. Say well why and a become a Shiite. I can figure out what was mortal blow me and so that's why I came for."

[14:23]" The -- what what are the issues what were the issues and -- they -- where they where they obvious to you at the end of your career or only after you retired and what formed Atlantic."

[14:34]" Well I -- it I concede that they reloaded -- but I didn't know what it was with any issue with the impression. We'd we'd be eating disorder. Just quit not being David cope with arm of people but it it is seem like it got worse. As I retire where now I would request to a batter think about. Didn't think of that they care -- nothing. He really made him a wife but in the fighting all the all the time that's why it it is. It's called big problem in your household because you don't know which you don't."

[15:12]" when you saw the piece last night on HBO. -- what was your reaction to what were your thoughts when you were looking at yourself there as part of an article part of Goldberg's piece."

[15:22]" Well -- them. I did release that was me because that would wore down beat up. You don't I don't I don't believe that. I can't do real research they've that they would ask me questions they would there was that thought you know I was. Kind of shocked and embarrassed because. I don't Walid I think you know like I can hear them and -- come -- it now it felt like that but I don't know it just maybe maybe a little -- that."

[15:51]" We'll talk with gene Atkinson and -- wondering if he has suicide by Andre waters resonated with you because you pistols a minute ago. You have thoughts of suicide and that seems to fly in the face of what people think about NFL players tough minded you know mentally tough guys physically tough guys you're one of the hardest hitting safeties in the National Football League in that you were entertaining thoughts of suicide -- waters did more than just entertain those thoughts he acted on them."

[16:18]" Yes Andre what did happen -- In my it's like to call me into using under rewards is past is that it is not in the that she was trying to find out what happened in the and that's when like -- it's gotten interact with Chris. Where now because you know that -- kind of goes the same way. -- they would -- and if you want I guess that happens Spain where when they public the -- inevitable and it is just the -- So -- have a -- How -- what was going yet."

[16:56]" in the course of your career as a saint and as a dolphin you came across a lot of guys I'm wondering if you've. Been in contact with some ex teammates are former teammates who feel the same way that you deal winner experiencing some of the same things that you are"

[17:10]" no I think contact with some guys who with some some issues where BK cope with the hold like Normal but not. That depression well I -- the court is sensitive so almost see it. But there what I guess they're going to -- just figured it would that I needed up to like I've said I need you know."

[17:30]" by your estimation you had ten concussions in your NFL careers is that about right. Ten or more knowing what you know now having read which -- having talk -- to to Ted Johnson the doctors. What would you do differently if you were armed with all this information as a rookie coming into the NFL team."

[17:49]" Well what what I would do different. When I'm like what -- I hated -- being yep. I'd go to the traders -- you know ago IQ I think -- other side of the field and I'd probably need. Could that a restful while I don't know but. My background go to you know. Tough man that the you know go to that I figured you know you play with pain. You play with we can't see -- which -- felt like that but you know. If caught -- because you know are probably do the same thing if by if I was playing a you know I just. Just hope that yet -- understanding you know what they'll play with a -- they'll play it with about this study if you if you dig up go to satellite go to -- about -- you know you don't feel well up and you know. Did I think think right just slower phase I think if you guys do try to get yourself it just would -- on public do."

[18:51]" She we appreciate -- taken time -- to want to -- in an interest as well but we appreciate you coming on today in the courage demonstrated last night to tell your story to a national television audience. Thanks damaging appreciates -- appreciate you covenants one team vessel -- eagle -- thing. Quicktime heavily used the word there that you all the time in the National Football League and I think it really demeans what the end result about eight. I think being it's like a connect. I get -- to get dating. You got. That your brain bruised as what you got right is that essentially what happened here this morning and -- he suffered brain injury velocity got really took focal -- him one more segment are going to take a break I -- April that it was sports last week to back double Ted Johnson and -- what's going to -- phone calls as we discuss this very important subject going for we will be right back"