[0:09] ..." the night ten to well. Remember they'd hold back the Kansas City Steve Francis up co founder of sports media guide dot com researcher for ESPN's content department -- sixty is where you'll see your learn some of Steve's work. He covered sports government politics for the Kansas City star for a first met on the Boston Globe and the Boston Herald and is written AM. A memory evoking book called sorcery at Caesars Sugar Ray and marvelous Marvin spite. Stephen good morning how -- Morning John -- glad to have you aboard -- Ice as they as"...

[9:14] ..." you see reflects who you are. And you know Jerry you're you're Sugar Ray Leonard guy. You know you're flashy guy John for a new C Marvin winning because you're -- you know your main street yeah."...

[16:05] ..." he. Been asked to train. That's -- couple rounds with his idol Sugar Ray Robinson. And he carried this is one of the -- of memorable moments of his young life is I don't Sugar -- runs and so. It Petrocelli said no way of knowing this with who do you think -- Garrett is going to be emotionally. Partial to a guy named Sugar Ray yeah maybe."...

[16:29] ..." Speak of Sugar Ray and and I don't recall reading much about this although I know he had a very contentious divorce from -- and portions"...

[20:37] ..." books the -- the skulls sorcery at Caesars Sugar Ray and marvelous Marvin Hagler fight -- as the author if you have any. -- interest in what happened then and and and"...

[0:00]" Welcome back -- never three Dennis and Callahan very pleased to. Say hello and person for the first time a long time to a very long term friend more years the night ten to well. Remember they'd hold back the Kansas City Steve Francis up co founder of sports media guide dot com researcher for ESPN's content department -- sixty is where you'll see your learn some of Steve's work. He covered sports government politics for the Kansas City star for a first met on the Boston Globe and the Boston Herald and is written AM. A memory evoking book called sorcery at Caesars Sugar Ray and marvelous Marvin spite. Stephen good morning how -- Morning John -- glad to have you aboard -- Ice as they as they played much the same and doesn't doesn't anybody with the style or to -- more than he did the back in the Kansas City days and and as a place to jump off here. Looking at ray Leonard and marvelous Marvin Hagler. While they have a lot in common both fighters both African American both shared at some points in their career drug problems both at some points in their career shared domestic abuse problems. But if they were cats and dogs these two guys couldn't be more different as as as men on this planet fair to say affairs say."

[1:10]" Yeah Leonard was Hollywood. Marvin was main street yeah. You know there are differences but Leonard was considered the glamour figure of the two in Marvin was. Old school professional."

[1:24]" from the beginning Marvin. Resented all of that the accolades the appearance is on the Tonight -- as the commercials that was even from the beginning. Stuck in -- it."

[1:33]" It started in 1973 when they were in the golden gloves tournament -- maps and Leonard got all the media attention. Marvin was the local guy and he immediately resented this you know. Brilliant young flashy fighter from."

[1:49]" Palmer park Maryland now the name your book of sorcery at -- but actually you could probably more accurately called -- sorcery. Before seizures because the though the mental intimidation the psychological warfare the poise that ray Leonard. Foisted upon Marvin started way way way before that night at caesar's palace parking lot."

[2:08]" It it started you can pick your time but it you might say it started in 1982. Ray was host their retirement party at the Baltimore civic center for himself for himself he had -- he had suffered a detached retina. Marvin was invited down there he thought ray was going to announce a big fight between the two in the ten million dollar payday for Marvin. Howard Cosell as the NC Mohammed Ali was there it was a big thing. And Marvin went in the ring and if the very end race said unfortunately it'll never happen. Marvin was terribly deflated. And in embittered he thought he'd been used as a problem in Leonard's retirement. And then Leonard came back and still didn't give me chance -- at any you know letter came back and fun twister in 1984 funny guy named Kevin Howard Marvin was -- ring side he study's going to get the big fight and again Leonard retired after that. Some Marvin thought ray was really retired. And in 1986. Re opened a restaurant down in Bethesda Maryland. -- invited Marvin Bertha down. As guests they set down they had a couple of bottles of champagne Marvin opened up. You know bared his soul to ray Leonard said I'm tired of fighting. You know my wife wants me to get out my mother wants me get out -- cutting its you know I've lost my stomach fort. And at that moment race said to himself. Now's the time --"

[3:40]" Time yet the irony is that that that ray as a commentator for HBO covering a marvelous Marvin Hagler fight. Thinks he spotted something to give him a physical edge in in in a fight if he were to ever decide to -- and fight Marvin that is that about right yeah."

[3:57]" I mean ray was technically brilliant yeah -- he would you know he would watch films for hours and when he -- Marvin -- fight in March of a 86 on the beast. Which in which. Marvin had noticeably slowed down you know that was Martin's first fight after the big Tommy earns about right. Rate study notice something. You know John you know better than anybody Marvin. Was. Intimidating fighter in the brutal fighter but somewhat. Methodical. You know paint by the numbers and where is ray Leonard was a free lance you know as a stream of consciousness improvise and and so Leonard Leonard saw something it reminded me of I'm I'm researching this film and Joe Louis right now. Match smelling watched Joe Louis fight. Next bear. And told everybody told someone sit next and I see something in what he saw was it Lewis whose drop in his left hand. And in their first fight smelling -- and evidence stop Lewis and twelve rounds."

[4:58]" There are other things that other people saw. A marvelous Marvin Hagler after the -- fight and anybody who knew Marv and even a little bit knew that. He was a Spartan he was one of these guys would go to Provincetown put himself as Marvin used to like to say in jail denied himself all the Pletcher."

[5:14]" All the since he sees the tougher -- likes to work out what this is what what was his reason. -- I guess because they didn't distract yeah because they didn't distract them yeah."

[5:25]" was like the beautiful people in there were no distractions and he denied himself all these earthly pleasures for all of these years getting -- needed to go. And the culmination. In most people's minds in fact in my estimation the greatest sporting event I ever saw was Hagler and Tommy hurts but it ended up being pretty common knowledge that after that remarkable victory. Margaret. Didn't quite did not himself although earthly pleasures and as you say is next fight -- on the beast you've got -- he wasn't nearly the -- Marvin pack we'd seen to that point."

[5:54]" Yet that's that's the point at which that -- fight made Marvin and national superstar. I mean he was on Johnny Carson etc. And the fame the celebrity. Changed hands somewhat he'd be -- began to indulge. You know we have. Reports that he was. Abusing substances and you yourself you know reported that after his crew you know writer's final final record. He became less -- Spartan and you know one symbolic thing was he used to turn Provincetown. All of a sudden he started training in palm spring yeah okay it was warm you know and -- and he's running on that beaches where it's twenty degrees. In Palm Springs he's training in you know 75 degree weather so it was it was different he changed."

[6:41]" Let's fast forward to April in 1987 just before the fight and something strange -- I'd never heard about this. The the general manager of the sports book at caesar's palace that never changed on that fight the whole world believed Marvin Hagler was going to tear this kid biscuit this this man ray ray Leonard. Limb from limb I mean -- of these detached retina. He was humans you know certainly not a Marlins class in terms of strength and infighting that that Marvin fought the right fight the shouldn't be a fight at all get something happened this season couple like for the fight."

[7:10]" Yes -- you know. Maybe you're you're young listeners don't know Marvin was a 321 favor yeah he had lost -- and a half years ray had fought just once in five years and not fought very well. And so. The the the manager of the caesar's sports book blue Demeco woke up the day of the fight. In he'd had a dream in the dream was that he shied ray Leonard's -- raised over his head yet to win a decision he went into the -- said guys. You know we got to take a position on Leonard. -- dropped from three at 31 to two and a half to one for Marvin which brought in more money on Marvin. And."

[7:51]" such a Demeco was saying caesar's palace wants to bet on ray letter that's what they did and and he of course he proved right at -- you know. Made an extra 300 you know in the country could imagine you know I can't I don't believe and hopefully people based decision -- it really you know. You could construct a conspiracy theory no -- that think Stephen I was there and I was rooting for Marvin like Marvin liked mil and I hated Leonard. -- won. And leather 1 I am so tired this. Revisionist history and I think it's mostly from people's hearts not their heads that Marvin gets screwed I don't think -- ever get screwed I think -- blow it I think Marvin is only mobbing the blame."

[8:29]" I certainly agree with that but I I think ray stole the fight now what that means he stole the fight and had more points. -- all the fight -- didn't have gotten it the right thing re laughing -- lower rate was a much smarter guy. The marvelous Marvin Hagler and -- club has been I absolutely."

[8:46]" They fought again I think my immortal one of the -- ten times of the you've won eight times but on that night. Leonard won a minute they have is if somebody from Newsday hold them the ringside press that night twelve people that Marvin and ten headliner winning the point about the subject of sports you know figure skating diving gymnastics. Is it is subjective. Event where it's that close you and Epstein. What you want to see what you see reflects who you are. And you know Jerry you're you're Sugar Ray Leonard guy. You know you're flashy guy John for a new C Marvin winning because you're -- you know your main street yeah. So but I can't tell how hard I hated when -- rooting hard for Hagler but let's face it you could say stole it."

[9:33]" But people who. Like hard and effectively at the end of rounds always feel -- limits that's part of the sport from an -- no execution standpoint. I think two things happened Marvin screwed up in that he decided for whatever reason and maybe you can explain this to us. Not to fight left handed which would have. -- much of what -- letter wanted to do and -- latter taking a page from Mohammed Ali and rope -- dope. Fought the last thirty seconds of every round having Angelo Dundee -- thirty seconds at the end of each round and he did nothing. For the first part of that round he fought hard at an elementary go to the gold gloves guys do that and every correct but would those two things not have had much to do with -- the judges saw --"

[10:12]" They did -- of the judges felt forehead and mostly because you know it was ray Leonard doing and he was convincing they were. They were seduced by who he was he was he was this famous glamorous champion. The question about why Marvin started -- at that answered. There's two there's two things one is that he believed he could confuse Leonard Leonard hadn't you know Leonard expected and come out and south bust stance so this would throw him off. The other thing is that I think is more likely. You know Marvin strong punches knockout punch was his right hand if you come out and orthodox stance. You set that up and he may have been going for a very quick knockout if he could confuse Leonard somehow very quickly and landed a right. You know his best -- right first."

[10:57]" It could've and didn't really did det cards. I -- essentially he could've could've pulled that August 3 factor though is that it Martin's ego department saying let me beat him on his terms as opposed to let me beat him on my terms."

[11:09]" Italy yet that's how Marvin was psyched -- I mean at that point. You know Martin had lost in two and a half years he believed he could do anything in a rain. He can he can beat you up in a street fight like he -- and he thought he can out box ray Leonard. You know the biggest upset the ball -- that he never bought again that -- amazed to think about boxes. And I think in you know 45 comebacks four -- five times you come out of retirement here. -- Leo -- you name it Larry all they all come back it's incredible -- six is such an exception to the rule in that sport crazy -- in you know it's such a rare let me do it how many stay away. He just felt he had enough money. He may have been so mad at the boxing establishment that is -- true but that's not really doing that that's almost motivation to come back. At some points and see -- took to make that your famous final scene this this despite you blow you. I mean your first loss in ten years and your last fight make that you're. Your farewell. Fight I mix and I agree I agree you know and you know the guy fought for fifty dollars in his first pro fight. He was offered fifteen million bucks for a rematch do you how do you pass a -- what's your answer I."

[12:21]" Answer for that I think an -- as much as Marvin would just just cringe to hear this I think ray Leonard. Cut his boxing heart out with that victory mean you wrote it he went to New Hampshire and and wept. Was it was -- it was disappeared from the face of the for a while that he."

[12:36]" I threw a senator Bob by himself night after night well but John that doesn't make me since I think in this. You want to get your heart back you go back for one more fight you make fifteen million you save face you change your legacy your image forever. And he says no. He couldn't he -- that I could do differently next time and beat him next time. You know he was just that different kind of guy how -- Rocky Marciano walked away undefeated with a -- you know just. It was undefeated them and that's pretty cool walk away after blown up by -- it makes no sense and and you know it didn't you think you would be one the guys who follow when he's 45 in on not maybe not to ran like not that pathetic it. But he was a fighter he wasn't TV guy. And and home is not much of an act on his I don't have a million everybody wanted to rematch. There should have been a rematch you know what I did this book I'm thinkin'. Darn you know why that is way of getting them back at them all -- and you want me to come back and a month and was at Rupp and maybe that's how we -- is noses -- everybody yet maybe you know want to put another Kenny and ray Leonard's pocket. You know he was so angry -- but the fact is."

[13:42]" I don't think he was afraid of ray I think he clearly truly in his heart believe he beat right in fact he thinks that rate told him you beat me in the ring so my guess is that -- elect. -- at himself while couldn't beat this guy but bottom again he thought he beat him and he actually thought rates said to him after the fight you actually won this mark."

[13:59]" He did it any thought rates at that race said no Marvin. He race Marvin you're still a champion to me that's that was raised Virginia but. I you know it's inexplicable. It's just one of those in twenty years later I think one of the reasons I did the book was you've heard the stories I've heard the stories that. Marvin is still carrying this around or he won't be photographed with ray -- yeah. You know when you -- you know that bitterness around for so long it it's it's more than a fight it becomes like you know enduring fable."

[14:34]" he could almost write a book on just the judges and and the erotic stories involved here can you take us through what could be a conspiracy theory for not only Joe Joe where have but Detmer ready and and and the irony of who'll. The Hagler camp picked to be the judge."

[14:50]" Yet there could be conspiracy theory -- already was one judge he voted for Leonard seven rounds to five. He was forming a business partnership with Las Vegas gambler named Billy Baxter they are going to do fight promotions. Baxter had at least 30000 wagered on -- and he told readiness he did. In meridian news this so in them already had a very good reason to vote for -- The you know the end of batting AG's office investigated this after the fight and found nothing. They'd they'd get home monthlong investigation now it -- already ever going to missiles -- Baxter no they didn't they did you know. It will look terrible at that. AG's office and actually charge meridian they don't ruin the boxing industry or that but. And the other -- judge judge of -- for Monterrey Mexico. He was a last minute decision is that Marvin manager's head vetoed the British -- because he thought them. And Mexican judge would be more amenable to Marvin style. More and more paper in the brawler yes the -- right rather than most British jobs favorite boxer yeah. It turns out that Georgia -- as young man -- You know. Worked in Chicago and you know worked out in the gym and one day he. Been asked to train. That's -- couple rounds with his idol Sugar Ray Robinson. And he carried this is one of the -- of memorable moments of his young life is I don't Sugar -- runs and so. It Petrocelli said no way of knowing this with who do you think -- Garrett is going to be emotionally. Partial to a guy named Sugar Ray yeah maybe."

[16:29]" Speak of Sugar Ray and and I don't recall reading much about this although I know he had a very contentious divorce from -- and portions of those depositions were ultimately released. But I didn't recall or maybe -- even know until I read your book. Ray -- scumbag -- with a domestic abuse cocaine. Alcohol."

[16:48]" Induced domestic abuse -- scumbag. You know. These are things we didn't know at the time of the fight in if -- known it would have made a fight even more interest yes ray Leonard had a three year period before the fight. Total. Substance abuse. Womanizing. He blew apart Stanley pretty much and one of the reasons he came out of retirement to fight hecklers he he hit rock bottom. He woke up 1 morning after an all night B -- looked in the near in his face was distorted and bloated. Any started crying. -- said to himself. You know the only way I can recapture my life is to come out in fight Marvin Hagler."

[17:33]" Was this after the incidents of threatening to burn down his own mansion with his kids and his wife and it yes -- what do you tell a story."

[17:39]" Yes there was an incident this came out in no one need is divorced deposition that. -- came back one night's from a beings. And she hit -- his cocaine down the toilet and you know angered him. He'd pushed around through furniture around broke lamps took at a camp kerosene. -- on the front foyer. Threatened at the white house on fire and he should you know she gathered the monsters and he punched her. She gathered -- two little boys together got them out of the house. And you know drove often as she drove up he was ranting catcher I mean he was out of control it was probably. You know the worse it was bad enough that G mention in the deposition yeah."

[18:27]" And I Germans and the point of the two fighters if you watch you know what happened on April 6 1987. Ray Leonard wins this. Defense that nobody thought I can win and Marvin Hagler loses an event that nobody thought he could lose Marvin Hagler the the the champion who has been dispatched goes off into -- oblivion. And."

[18:46]" Ray Leonard fights four or five more times. Yeah no reason you know ray Leonard went on to make another fifteen million dollars you know that the yeah. -- light heavyweight championship from a guy named Donnie -- once every five but Tommy and I saw -- Mets scored and it was pathetic he was forget we fought but it was a bunch of celebrities there. With Terry Norris oh it was Terry Norris because I know -- their north after the fight in the box yeah there was the coolest thing was to use. And his brother as that was a finals remember. And they and in he thought he'd put blended into retirement once and for all. And he should it was and it I don't remember ray came back five days later to fight the Hector -- forty but that's typical boxers never walk away except for Marvin. And it's you know it's very rare you know Leonard. You know I mean he became a -- he retired some times 456 times you know like oddly similar to what -- now vehemently. Marvin yeah splits his time between Italy -- in New Hampshire -- you know he does celebrity boxing events street Mary remarry. You know he's in the hall of Spain. You know he's paid to do commentaries and time for -- I think he's enjoyed his life from. I ran into him a couple of years ago it in Dorchester. Boxing charity event in. And down in Brockton. You know amateurs and then he was cordial and seemed to be. Enjoy himself he just won't talk about Leonard if you bring it up it's like wade and red flag for a probable."

[20:20]" What carrying a Gretchen hi I didn't see the play now. It's possible. That yeah -- the winner to take parents of -- and the winner that could have during the -- much golf as a senior staff were there -- years boxing twenty put 24 ounce gloves on about cup of the worst to get out but facet."

[20:37]" books the -- the skulls sorcery at Caesars Sugar Ray and marvelous Marvin Hagler fight -- as the author if you have any. -- interest in what happened then and and and the Halcyon days if you will of the fight game sorcery at -- they -- streets the -- dominant."

[20:53]" Can I mention you can get it at the Humphrey street hardware up in the swamps of protest -- I don't know where in -- steepest Valencia thanks John I -- April sports flashes now."