Jackie MacMullan, Author of "When the Game Was Ours"

" Kevin Garnett to see something greater -- to double time behind Bill Russell. That's fine you know max -- Rockwell -- even though. That's Larry Bird. Talking with mr. Greene himself Greg Dickerson. This even more in a brand new book that I can tell you just I have not finished at. But it's absolutely terrific and probably for me I have neither it was ever that you haven't -- I started out of you started yet. The -- and not shy with the article you're gonna joint -- and -- both lived through this time. You think it's the day Larry Bird are Irvin Magic Johnson. All with Jackie -- it's called when the game was ours the point that Everett to this point. Is absolutely phenomenal this is a a must read for all people except center virtual joining us right now the collaborator the person put it all together -- connect well. It is great to have you back on the show Jacki for those people who don't know. Was one of our co host at one time here and -- what happens something happened yet Jackie can't remember exactly how it came down its open happen and then -- Disappeared from from our Airways but we're we're we're happy to have you back an eviction."

" Thanks Glenn I think it was. That the employer of mine every common name in my husband's company or another globe made it out that."

" Dependent in my I didn't it was something that that when you knew that there was a favorite try to bring -- off the -- I've read. Some readings in this book yesterday the specific stuff and exams that it was was critical but you I had a champion today and you said to me that. It wasn't really that critical about -- that can help well."

" Well. It certainly is critical of that one year 1985 I can tell you is that dumb."

" You know he's still considers snacks are the best team -- he ever had it's just that one year they certainly have a difference of opinion. That one year went 1985."

" But you know before that and after that. I think it's -- clarity."

" You don't ask somebody five that's money PLC had agreed to respect for Mac especially when he came in as a regular block for Macs that they had a lot of fun together in the early years under --"

" There's nothing left but boy it's is that what you -- underestimates. John I've read you excerpts you want me to -- because you bring up. Maybe we can get some callers -- some listeners you know that heard what the in the east yesterday."

" Do you think Jackie and all that Larry's recollection of 85 'cause I think he's very candid in his book as his Magic Johnson do you think. That any of his recollection to max might have anything to do. With some of the things that maxis said unfortunately or fortunately in this program over the last couple years is comparison to Dirk Nowitzki or other things is. Does any of that play in to Larry's recollections of --"

" I don't think it plays into his recollection is that it probably plays into his willingness to offer his recollections of that play that would let you know I think. It became these two guys down whatever happened between them and you know I was I was really young reporter and now this is gone on and I was not privy to it at the time it was gone on we all had no idea about summit. But am I mean these guys. They want a couple of championships together and could have one without the other one in. That's been seen these kind of things."

" Well well Lou Jackie take the music is now her buy them -- them. Well she should you copy of the book what Jackie they also have me and I'm gonna be signing copies of this book to. Have me there."

" I gotta tell you before and it stuck to their Macs just to people now was incredibly incredibly helpful for the booked. Besides in this one. -- it though very very very down helpful to me both at Mellon acts. About explain the racial climate in Boston during the time the racial climate in the NBA. In the early to mid eighties."

" Kevin Garnett is explained that yesterday -- Jackie -- Altec Isiah wasn't that cooperative and yet you both teams. Jackie out of explains that there by. I don't have any animosity towards Larry. I love Larry as a player love me as a person. And and I don't I -- not you know one way or the other. -- be upset by this -- of people would say that the load hockey hockey not he said this -- said that while. A lot of first of all Jacqui hi Kim. In public opinion I can -- the other bird that that could beat their birds -- it beat -- So whatever Larry says about me. I'll I have to say about that is that look we went to championships together we have a great time. You we we word great teammates Al with start at the side of the war. I average six years I -- it -- different things -- learn a lot of things from him so. I don't even get into the you know that whole thing like as -- is student back magic. I don't I'm not want I don't I don't do that if -- Larry since there is like you do were some things in the book the book also that were not actress. When that that you had that they believe it was -- the other day in the youth is now. I guess when her mind you that was -- appeals which would force them out what's. That was not -- actress."

" We let me when you Hector -- mutiny we have them surgery. Actually on the tell me I. Am aware that that capital grilling you would say and deeply people think that's shake his injuries and was waking me up at night -- yeah they try to back."

" I didn't I didn't say got to patent Cusick US says that -- night I hurt myself as it did did wake me up at night. But that's that I had to have surgery I didn't pop he -- because we didn't even have -- at the time."

" Well I mean -- idol I think you're not suggesting you were like you know. Taken some kind of series."

" Well I mean the way it was way it was written in the way people understood yesterday was that you know what I was popping -- be every issue you were the source of and that are fighting and that really I really wasn't."

" Look at a lot of -- I mean that's certainly not the way it was responses suggest secure haven't some kind of drug issue with this is anything Mac but I was trying to show because sites that our time talking about it was looked. Whether Larry that the injury was real or not. Max's waking up in the middle of the night this is this weapon that is needed just thought it was important put that in there I would think it would be some he would want and."

" Well I think that one thing about Jackie was that you did have a lot things that were Akron was the fact that it did it was surgery that's and the you know to it to say what people were saying that the time we we get into -- yesterday it was like. When that the lives Larry used in the book was to talk about. What went he'll pitch with two year all the things going on if they would have won the championship because you know people dislike bill. Randy went on I guess in the 85 and and talked about world. All the things that happened and the BS that happened with me when you know when I got hurt in -- comeback but. You know in that book I don't think that anything was written about Larry when he -- in the playoffs about Larry when neo fight about that heard his name and they're jealous."

" Yeah well that's because Larry is a prohibited by legal reasons for ever talk about Bellini he did not but he wasn't asked about he's asked about it every time well and whether it."

" Mean what what are the what are the what the legal reasons right now I know there was some type of settlement at the end yeah."

" And keynote deal Leona at all -- yeah so he'll do whatever it is any kind of legal anything regarding Larry that it. He doesn't talk about it I wish he would talk about that because I don't think that's story's been told correctly but I can't I can't tell him what you know he doesn't want talk about that's. That's his choice."

" Well when does the timeframe run out -- the book right there are actually initially what's what's happened in the last couple days does."

" the relevant bodies -- it did say about. In Oakland made the big big baby's immature acts of assertive but just remember I think it was done with with some myself that in the next state Larry Bird did the same thing at a much more important time in C."

" Right -- right that's right into the playoffs and that might have been a different story with those play -- said -- that -- I don't know I don't know why you."

" I'm glad you I don't you know let well enough to know that he'll tell you that that's somehow that injury kept on his right into coupons the government -- things."

" Correct that's what excellence. On and off the record jacked. Up directive that -- that public. Jack and what would you do with a book was younger when you're talking to the with two participants was there one thing did this open your eyes the east -- that comment."

" Armed with."

" Yeah I -- could. I knew that these guys hate each other means that the Celtics hated magic in and the lakers made it Larry and I knew all that but what I didn't know -- talent that they were individually with one another. For instance."

" In magic's rookie year as everybody knows that the plane at six is in the finals it's couple days before the game. It PR guys in the -- it comes up to magic consists tech Italian you know you can -- you're Larry --"

" And now Mac psychiatric he expected that could spur of the play a lot of minutes and scored a lot of points and he said was well -- that now the 633. Inadequate crazy you know he just thought that was really unfair and very and -- patent caucus father and father went crazy. That expecting you know what."

" All the facilities and you know. Be deeply polarized the assets in the -- what he's the best looking like you -- me in my -- he went out at that to meet in game."

" So the fact that he was that worried about what Larry completely went bulk waste of Larry's in Boston at a restaurant. Watching that game which believe it or not 1980s on tape delayed because MBAs now it is now. Again was on tape -- yet buddy that satellite feed in -- for him to watch -- he's sitting with his friend. Watching magic is dominate. And he's getting more and more agitated and upset he -- likes. You know -- and I got to win something could magically just won the NCAA can't -- report numbered -- he'd down to do not think so. That the fact that they would that tuned into one another and that yelling at one another can that is the word that."

" They did didn't the real -- between it and there was a lot of tilt it that that's."

" Do you think that they would have been as good as they would have been Jacqui if they had not had each other the that you know the battle off what's motivating --"

" I don't know if that's probably not because I think that."

" They were really focused on what the other guy was -- you know also doesn't talk about how port Jordan port Jordan -- funny to say but he never had anybody you know bit. The people what year maybe it was partly one year may -- it was -- on that really was they never had anybody like that committed themselves against."

" And the rivalry between the two was made it so much more intricate and finally the thing about both of them. Which I think set them apart and made the -- recently to team with both of them. Didn't care they hit the winning shot if they made the winning pass that was good enough for me and it really brought the art of -- back into the India."

" I think what Jordan eventually had -- the pistons as a team. Right Jordan rules that was kind of his motivation out there."

" I think that's probably accurate and course Turkey yet it dislike for right there that stretch from here to eternity so."

" Used to be a lot of that going around -- track out yeah. What what's the situation was a zoo did you have you talked to -- cents."

" I've a I've texted him but I think that the text back but I don't often have the right tech number. I did try to contact my thought it was really important to attract -- everybody in the book and I thought. You know need to be spoken with -- certainly he did at a very taking a back from the agents saying you know like they appreciate your efforts. But you know get nothing but nice things to say about magic and Larry -- you probably wouldn't be useful for your -- Because what I had said that sent an email let's listen. Mike is not just look at some of -- good and some other event and you know it really would like for and respond -- just. He got some advice not to respond I think probably in retrospect probably wishes. Head because maybe you know would come out differently."

" A jacket do you think with the load them up with defecting to Europe. Both --"

" Oh exactly let me just tell you that. -- expressed by the superstar athletes written this book are not open held up the Arctic."

" I know I understand that you know I I understand that but I'm still come it to the to a book party where the views are gonna be there. When I'm committed to the body -- view yeah it's like you've got the bill little op where at. Never read I haven't read the book."

" well -- make that decision on your own but I can tell you is once again I appreciate audience that you gave me this book and and you know I did try to I think he knew that what some that the flags that wasn't going to be that good because I I hope I made that clear view. And I I want you to have a chance to thanking you wanted it to say about your situation during that year."

" Does anything negative about Illinois and they want negative thing about that social negative things about yourself I have -- it --"

" Though and you know I think you bet that there just like they need to be made here and I think Immelt made it pretty well in on your behalf and other people's behalf in and the -- same thing was that. The one thing about Larry woods is tolerance for pain. And his ability to play through you know ridiculous. Situations he expected everybody else to have that same standard and it's impossible."

" Well I think I'm running most of the stuff did not surprise me the next hundreds -- well -- but has some great gyms in here or not but the reason I say that is. Larry's approach. I thought was much different than just about everybody else I would say everybody else on the team and it was much different than Macs and Kevin McNeal to key players during that period in which. You know Larry was. Possessed with the basketball. And an -- every didn't get married during a period of time he was that was all basketball he would keep. And that's why. I clearly get that he probably felt even though you probably couldn't play next I'm not questioning whether you could -- put in -- is mine he thought he. Could play under that paint white could need to I think -- the same issue with Mikhail in that I always felt that with Mikhail. Larry felt the Kevin could be a better player if he devoted more time to the game and didn't do things like fish and hunt and spent time because."

" Yeah yeah. It absolutely -- that the -- that book them before he passed away obviously he said. You know what when when Mikhail idea of the big the big night -- exploit their flag came back and had BS sixty points. He's said around the difference between the two of them. Is when when now Larry that someone Downey -- response to crisis throat and the -- reflect it Diana let's not let the difference between the two."

" I wanted to ask you -- I ordered a strategic vision DJ quotes in there in the book -- come out recently my guess is that you were referring back to. All coach you had about this or UN project working well before this."

" Yeah I did we we originally this was originally a coffee table book believe it or not many years sounds a little gears up with Larry and magic are gonna do a pictorial book a coffee table book and they asked me it's been -- right twenty -- 30000 words that's that the project was going to be. And of course I got started and you can't write and think about 1020000. Words. Well -- pointed out the details of that project itself through there were some problems that the publisher Canadian publisher it never happened."

" But all the interviews that I did during that time like say tonight in -- it was one of them and."

" Some of the other interviews. You know and of course once we made at the narrative and it became the book became I went back and talk to everybody -- it could but obviously by then."

" What what a difference in it I've I. Not knocking on a previous project I'm not -- order worked as a copy thing."

" I think the time it was frustrating it was the best thing that ever happened because the most distant but this is well I would have wanted to do. And down -- what I don't want to do because I was I was fascinated with the two of them and the relationship they matter we didn't have for as you guys know from many many years and -- really dislike each other for the first --"

" Others don't doubt there's no doubt and and that's what I say -- is talking about nice thing is not realizing that that that was a turning point you describe it well in this book. On when the two finally bonded and they found that they had a lot more common and and the relationship changed but reading this book I get the feeling. But these two guys that want it suddenly to purge they want it to -- throw all of this stuff out. When you first set down to talk about the project. Did you get that feeling that they suddenly wanted to talk about this."

" When it happens I think and they got to speak to this that you retired and all that music electric set up."

" And you start looking around you and start looking back at this career that you had because. You know any special I think I did the what would it take so much step to protect -- down and beat. The best you can be for all those years you have to give up so much really happens -- tunnel vision have to have the blinders on."

" And I think what's happening these two guys over years and years of time now finally had a chance to sit out."

" And sit back and reflect. On the journey that they and we -- do that you really look at things sometimes almost for the first time look at them and all nuclear way and I think that's what happened in in both cases here."

" Atlanta would Ellen and inject degree which analog pictures thing in one lump. Is what I think blend of -- the point you're making about Larry is so far is. What he idea he was single month in his approach to everything although the government goes well there was there was not theme. Outside of basketball and and that but in this real funny though there -- there were times when I do remember of Larry. And Larry be in this the guy who who wasn't about -- and one of them was like one Christmas. We will want to Kansas City. And Larry Bird and Kevin Mikhail they get every we were in first class we were flying commercial. They get a pot of coffee coffee pot there they get every imaginable liquor that is that the lady hands on in first class. Port all -- install a stir that that would come this is Christmas Jews."

" The we have the practice we -- practice that day -- we out of practice and that was the worst practice that result Larry I have in my life duke puts it with --"

" Believable so there there are times when -- it seemed like there was -- one dimensional and they were these -- smalls and that is that you see Larry that he would be -- the human and you go ha -- you know what in traveling certainly in the commercial base was later -- Are traveling in the chartered plane Larry at the back problems and that's what initiated the of the charter flights and he had this big apparatus called mr. back. And he would have to rely on mr. back but in the early days you're right those cross country trips god rest his soul Dennis Johnson was that your first of all. He hated flying is you know Jeff. Wolf that while they -- the joke was you'd turn white in an airplane you know in Africa and and and and so he would trip during the flights across country so they could add a gnome is a census put there was one flight cross country to an appointment -- what year was -- With the team that. You might have been. When you go across country Jack Nicholson was on the Allen room a flat and the movie that came on was what was that movie that was out of time guerrillas. Terms of -- terms of impairment and all the -- Dennis Johnson is standing up there and Larry was doing the same -- the -- ridiculing Nicholson I don't cross country flight but to help our great and -- are all they're all wheat based business jets so the customers -- was. Those long travels were like the I want to ask you about. The whole HIV thing with magic is that's got a lot of traction here in the last few days and Isiah Thomas. And what he had to that to say about it. And you talk about the Arab League in and and what went on with the and with with the NBA give us a little background on what was. Going on -- that end what. He felt Isiah was doing to."

" Well you know to me that this is summit that they exist without so much but what went on during this time with some of the most interesting that can mean you know when I look back on it I think. We were all little naive to think that. It was as simple as magic Johnson's saint."

" You know what guys I'd like to come Beckett in game David Stern well same back to back in and we'll all live happily ever after mean what you think about that. Of course that could have happened that -- and it -- take credit for spinning it exactly that way we heard very little about what went on behind the scenes. And a lot of what went beyond behind the scenes is very unseemly really stern head NBA owners continent threatening him."

" He had sponsored Condit calling and threatening to pull. There their support from the league if you let discuss Beckett. There's when he goes to Orlando. The for the All-Star game this course where we're at 92 All-Star game played. He brought along Elizabeth Glaser who would kind of -- that time."

" And from the blood transfusion."

" And she spoke to all the NDA lies in all the corporate sponsors and everything. And it'll after she was stunned people were -- it was so that it is trying to educate them on HIV and everything went which got done -- one of the women cannot -- said I'm so ashamed."

" My son is that is the core."

" It's sponsored peace supposed to in the MVP trophy to the -- who's the NDP in this game."

" I told -- it was Magic Johnson. "

" Under no circumstances was he with -- go anywhere near him. And so which came -- another round like that and -- equipment and said I'm so sorry feeling of panic but I don't want my has been out there with jobs."

" The latest later max when -- went back to magic's announcement. Coming back doubles yeah yeah you know mark price it would not unless the guy's state they've had raised the doubt so that was the climate against religion and -- magic. And as for those of you guys who nomadic you know that he's someone that needs to be -- people I'd like Byrd who would run from a crowd that you'd like to touch everybody is saying hello everybody."

" Billy has so we fed off that out that. Elect general people are run or not the -- you know he's like amnesty people across the street to the other sites."

" Even his own teammates they won't Huggins they want -- and we can't get anybody to play want all the the because nobody wants to get his sweat other. So this is the backdrop. I can't switch. He gets starts here in these rumors that it is question section Eileen making you know making questions about whether he's gay and how we contracted this disease."

" And argued the point it is like where he really needed."

" He needed his people behind him he need people backing it up it's certainly Pat Riley didn't you know some unlikely people Rex Chapman. With seven net that he met daring do but but the first people the right in the checks for this -- new foundation."

" And that he's really open you know not hoping just assumed that I think has one of the once it's gonna have -- backed."

" And when he finds out differently I'm from various sources the last straw being. The conversation Lon Rosen met with -- questioning again -- about it was instant death."

" What Jackie did they ever talk about them that they they did it -- Because I -- you always get that third party as I said did to that -- not to be in between that -- different people. And right about now when it's a one on one conversation is completely different and I'm talking used other. I welcomed the reporters or whatever it is so that they ever get down to just have a conversation among themselves."

" They had I think they they had some quick conversations about this but they never had to sit down -- you're talking about it if they had it probably could've been. All the probably could've been taking care of but either one of them did that now I know I thought it interest -- it they would say that he was blind sided by Elvis because. It was an instant later on where magic working for NBC television he's working with Peter that in near post and that he approaches and that you know let. It is really hurting come on we gotta get to two together let's let's get -- you'd sit down and work this out."

" And magic at that point was in insisted."

" So it was also very interesting block from -- of the New York Times that was just that just ran the day before yesterday in talking about a conversation he had with --"

" After he'd been left after the preteen."

" Obviously -- they would hurt. And Harvey had become somewhat of an ally to like it because he hit. You know called out between into me for saying this is a -- travesty which in many ways it was if you're going on ability. And any like like they had had this conversation but is it like you believe this is off the record according to Harvey."

" You know I can't believe that he didn't go to bat that magic to -- about me after taking a country and then."

" All these and then McCarthy asked him about all these rumors that party occurred about I'd -- a quick question sexuality in. -- I'm paraphrasing here you have to look it up on the block any New York Times. But -- if it's something well you know what I would headed back and stopped and said I wouldn't even -- for."

" We you know you know magic the far better than I do but I he's lovable guy your guy that's not only in accommodating in the the times and I had to deal with -- as a broadcaster for of them rival teen. But he was everybody loved him everybody respected him. But -- the beginning but. As time went on I think it was a kind of changed their but the problem at that -- Can you imagine if they despised player. It can down the HIV I think what was happening nearest. It was the timeframe that it's and we're looking at it now when we -- better working knowledge of what each audience at the time. He wasn't HIV positive. -- to most people that's probably viewed it. And income. Absolutely and is evident by the fact that you know right now he says he's still around Andy's been very productive -- life and it looked terrific and it's. So but at the time we didn't know that. And at that time everybody had a fear and nobody knew how you work how you could contract this I don't understand some of that don't you that the."

" Do I do absolutely do and and you know the thing that the thing and that it was -- Saturday at this the first -- did -- make sure it's -- and you know at the times -- pregnant. The on board two outs and then from there he educated himself on this disease he found out everything he could about it."

" Any -- decide to become the spokesperson for and."

" And part of that was that -- the HIV -- community but part of it was -- because you know what's needed like that he was -- he didn't want a piece done. He wanted to educate people that what he cannot get this from drinking out of my cup. Can not get that from a hug from me he cannot get this is Mike -- it's argue he was trying his best. To make people understand look this outpost on the meantime. David Stern a brilliant man by all accounts is doing the same thing. He's reading everything get its hands on learning everything he can about HIV and how it's transmitted in one of the things that sounds really interesting was."

" all these owners and sponsors and everybody else said you know what. Sorry David we are not going along with this we're not gonna allow Magic Johnson back into our league -- said okay look at sort of the -- that we're gonna have to have mandatory HIV testing."

" Are you sure that he's the only HIV positive -- part and apparently can guess what I'm not and at the point doesn't."

" You could imagine with with Hughes look at. That life is that this must've been just. Killing magic inside that he became that rise even even more so than have of the disease that nobody wanted to be around a by the way -- wife cookie stories."

" In the in the board by everybody everybody impede. All the players MB -- War. You know his response. And I will go to delay the game. And it was who's who was sitting there waiting for magic every imaginable star waiting. Or what that lie and it was warm in the -- down the blocked it to give magic good to see magic. So a lot of players yeah why should you just want to see dancing Mary that's all you can tell -- is what it -- of Larry as as as a personality because he had become you know this thing that that. It was. Larry and magic were almost it just is."

" They were all the gains they edit the Atlanta. --"

" Edit it what you're saying about magic is -- it is to stop a bunch of stories in the book about him traveling with the Jackson. -- You know he could eat when he first got there as a rookie. -- 83 years -- let people were on -- on every it was celebrity parties in part what got into trouble in the first place you know."

" He what he was the man that's that says so Jackie. You said about the in mosques -- between the two. The personalities have anything to do -- in other words clearly Larry you said he pointed out about magic accomplishments on the court but. What do you do you get the sense that Larry was you know I wish it was more like magic are."

" Now on them now and now lately that means -- right the Celtics needed that they thought it was phony there's still time basket that involvement and concepts and magic on his and said. Why is tech guy Larry Bird -- our what the tech front like in just -- standard and be friendly wants. Their personalities. Were so different. So different and they both did like the other for the way they work it was their their great skill and ability to and they help enable talk let's think pink. Attacking people so appreciate how the other went to -- the pop."

" That's what finally allowed -- to get their guard down and try to see if maybe."

" They could have something in common you know they do their -- very -- midwestern roots big families you know growing up or they have a lot of very very similar background."

" The congress right exactly that that kicked it off the -- it course it. It it culminated with. Larry bird's retirement night in who shows up wearing a Celtic -- shirt but magic Johnston which you max's right Jackie's write a few years before that there's no way Jeff Fisher is wearing."

" I -- we're I thought at the funny thing about that too that land -- and everybody is that an eighty that."

" You know that's what the hot ticket in town they're playing each other finals again. Burton needs extra tickets in LA. Magic is in the ticket. Magic need to extra tickets in Austin. Byrd gets in the ticket there is no way an answer -- that would happen in nineteen."

" I thought that was -- they have would be in the rebel rebel and you know what is really what it kept it quiet about it that happened at all so this many -- we give us is really about how it is now."

" should think -- so this many times before all my years of the NBA nobody has sent a better insights. To the game and the people in the game she knew them very very well. The -- well it's a terrific book Larry Bird. Our Irvin Magic Johnson with Jack in April and win the game was ours I wish of the most of what we're gonna get some -- away this afternoon you know I don't you don't mind if we have -- that the average back."

" My friend right. Right -- just watched as he is one of the free lunch from that was one of Islamabad you -- what -- our mind I bet you didn't care what what he was saying -- he was that's why he sets things it is it will remember that was about the dinner that the -- thanks it's great to have you back to the big -- we look forward to doing it again -- brought to you Jack and Jackie -- quick break. And we're back let's document on on the AT and you -- the vigil how much would you like to give away. -- Can you rip up page 1611. Night I do I'm gonna give the books he's gonna rip -- of its. Its its."