Jackie MacMullan

" Fourth and final hour Dennis without Callahan -- take in the -- up which turns along side -- which it's been about up. Hundred years since our last guest has joined us on the phone. This is just be a little -- I noticed anything about years to a woman she knows I'm talking in the who's gonna. Hyperbole here. And this by the -- a little appetizer -- rejected McMullen about a brand new book called win the game was -- Larry Bird and Irvin Magic Johnson. A fascinating read which I've just commands like can't ride out of which he's hands object is gonna join us in studio for much longer version and I weeks I Jackie how are you. Don't find -- before we get into the specifics and a couple of you know tidbits and -- in appetizers from the book itself. That stand to reason -- that the ingredients. To your book that would be -- and Larry. In short its success because a -- diametrically opposed they were as people as performance me all the white black is obvious the blue collar person showtime. The reluctant shy country boy the gregarious affable big personality does there'd you know diverse personalities. In short success when these two wanna tell a story."

" I think it doesn't mean I think Norman -- couldn't have come up with a better to come really when you think about it because they were so directory -- and then they ended up in the two most storied franchises. In NBA history might totally by chance. The same time a year after they displayed for the national championship are you kidding me."

" I -- I just started but based on you know all the stuff that you got both of these guys to tell you leads me to believe that may be their basketball rivalry. Carried over to the creation of this book it almost seems like they wanna top each other with good stories that they're telling you is that --"

" United they're great they're both great storyteller -- and I think to the one thing that I underestimated John. With how deep the competition between the two of them individually but he did a very good job concerned that they needed about the lakers and Celtics we knew they had their own little. One on one thing like but I had no idea -- did this book. The depth of their obsession of each other I think you know expect out of magic you don't expect it to Larry but it was very real on on both sides here."

" Jackie I read this to John. I'm just read it right now the the first paragraph in the introduction. -- think as any all anybody needs to hear this is Larry Bird talking. When I was young the only thing I cared about was beating my Brothers mark and Mike rolled with the me. And what that meant they were bigger stronger and better in basketball baseball everything they pushed me they drove I want to beat them more than anything more than anyone. But I hadn't met magic yet. Once I did he was the one I had to be what I had -- magic went beyond Brothers. And then in in the -- the whole forward and then he goes on to say. People have been writing about magic and me for years some of that they got right. Some -- did this is our story. From the two people lived it I mean yeah the first thing I want to do was congratulate you I remember talking to you just briefly about you write this book it I hope this is a huge. Huge success because I know for me. I'm gonna read this as soon as I leave here today because -- wanted to know what Larry was thinking and its many situations and you give so much -- already into what I've read it's unbelievable."

" Well it's been a long hard process and I think they've both had to be ready I think some time at the past. I thought interview with Ali wants talking about alien Frazier and how he couldn't see Frasier could he was right in front of them all those years you. To which is -- from a safe and you needed time to step back and one of his bet was that he didn't get a chance to talk more Frazier about it Decourt could of course she's like without. And I think that that's the great the great thing that works in this book is that all the them now have perspective that has history their legacies are intact. And now they can really tell you. What they were thinking that have this stuff and it -- like Magic Johnson -- a great game in 1980 when they went camping."

" Gasoline outlook -- Alexander 42 points."

" Exactly -- into perfect from the line played 47 minutes. And everybody in this it is the greatest thing ever won the big thing that motivated -- but the day before that game the rookie of the year voting came down. In the PR guy from the -- except that the that the magic and says. And that -- and bad news you can repeat the air and said blackbird one right that said yeah I think he's gonna went with a close. And it got it well now what I mean it was 63 it's not new it was a landslide."

" And magic was defined himself that you think didn't he was met his father was. --"

" And it's really not an art and magic went out in that game game six against the -- in 1980 final thing."

" You wanna be the best you need to -- I'll tell you related income eaten and Byrd meanwhile is in Boston."

" Now I remember that game is tape delay that's about it was in India back in a state that the final NBA finals on tape delay its. Burton and Bob and it has some friends as we know. They get them into a restaurant they get a live feed the game he didn't -- At this press aren't watching the game with buddies you sold it off. He's respecting magic but a distinct and OT dot that this guy -- in the other one."

" He's won the college championship and now we can -- you opt out of their old ticked off -- him. It's who -- not in the concept whoever the army -- so. They don't doubt the next year and went."

" Well you say this again this is in the -- in the introduction to Sue Bird we didn't like each other that much it was too hard. We were trying to beat each other year after year and people kept comparing us. I wanna it would he had so why didn't wanna get to know him because I knew I'd probably light -- and then I'd lose my edge."

" Some -- have been best friend Larry right from the get go make could be. Leading edge of even that still that's a big guys like exactly right Jackson well that personality."

" While moron that time period I don't know if this is during the book about this from home -- there is but take -- back to the 1979 draft -- one thing that's always fascinated me. Is that read we -- know the story read draft spurred the year before with the sixth pick they lose their number one pick. But April of of that year of 1979 the Celtics have no first round pick because they've used it on Larry the lakers have the first pick. Burton still deciding on an agent he gets -- wolf. Had he not signed with the Celtics he goes back into the draft. And it would've been magic versus bird for choice. For the lakers I mean oh my goodness."

" No he was so it's but he was only gonna go what the Celtics for the most but the funny part about that story is. Now go practical further now go down at the it's thirteen year eat this up he's gonna cut to tell but. Not not coming out and not coming no I'm not an out he goes into it turn that red comes to see them play Arkansas and into it turn -- Israeli -- Now Larry after it was just -- talk about playing right now you can be the first player ever. Play -- in the NCAA championship and then come play for an -- And it'll it'll ask you want me to do that -- those were to lose. Yeah likely yeah you're you're gonna -- this statement and let someone assigned to the first stated -- my look at some little indicate an eclectic it'd be it's not. So they would try to get him to be the first player ever to go right from the NCAA championship to -- indicated your member courses Celtics were horrible that yet you know what Larry didn't stand. You want to graduate promises not what he had a good benefits they'll is that teaching. At a local high school teaching drivers that. Don't step played for the Celtics -- teaching driver's."

" We're talking Jackie McMullen her new book is called on the -- are blurred Bert and Irvin magic Johnson and Jeff a -- wondering in the process of writing this book. Have you determined in your mind and will we read in this book what was the one thing that molded to these two very diverse people for example. Does Larry talk openly about his childhood and his father's tragedy and in how that might have shaped him or do we find out you know the basis for who these guys became NY."

" And you -- You guys are heard about the beat this summer that they they feel that congress commercial. And it really truly let the turning point the interesting thing about it has been -- obviously reported for almost twenty years now. The bet that commercial shot in the summer of 1984. After the Celtics won the championship it's. It's incorrect it would actually shot in the summer of 1985. After the Celtics. Want. It to the lakers which to me is a big difference people -- gave. People he said well Larry did it because they -- what you know what that's not true but they can do different applicant what happened there what state John in between. Suit casino along those commercials taking time and -- your Hollywood guy -- and death."

" Please stop his yeah. Hurry up and away during the winter and start Ariel and the judge Jackie."

" they'll be armed of one of the things that happened there was that the two of them had a lot of parents -- gonna start talking about their -- that start realizing you know let. We're really not that much different we both grew up poor in small mid -- at least we both had strong parent. You know one certainly more tragic and -- magic's spirits are still living and still very much part of the flight but I think that was negated -- you know we're really not that much different from -- And I think that's without sort of the starting off point to softening their relationship just a little."

" How they get nuts and bolts go putting this book together did you have to get one to agree for the other one to agree and did you talk to them completely separate all the time -- they ever together in the same room. Telling the same stories of the same time."

" There were never in the you know they were never in the same room -- the same time we get a conference call at one point but pretty funny that they were -- that we were brought together. All the way back and magic induction into the basketball hall thing. Because he got Larry to present in and that's when it's really first stated that this seat to this book were really first planted and I did spend a lot of time with two of them that we can't. But you'd you know they're -- in saint and so for the most part what I would do this you know went out to LA for three days with magic and -- and and up to Indiana for three days Larry and Ellis and I'd go back to -- Larry members this what you think. And that's they're both as they both have a remarkable memories very did they remember things very similarly. They're members of very good."

" What what is Larry in his heart of hearts think about Boston this town playing in this town I mean he was a reluctant hero to be sure. I think all as as time grew he got more comparable with the action became pretty good at it he give us of the you know the ten to twelve minutes sitting on. You know the doctor's table -- middle locker and then take up you'll get up and take off. Did he ever grow comfortable in his own skin in this town."

" Yes I did hear and and the only reason he didn't settle here and kind of funny it was the traffic. He said the problem it. It was just too much too crowded it was too hard for me to get from point a to point -- And -- drive and -- in my car and people recognize you and I'm driving and at a highway and that traffic if you don't like it at -- carton and animal. Is that the -- so that we probably would have on this he loved it here and the tickets to bat away because he's. He's involved the pacers in and we all know -- that when he involving something involving a credit percent not 989796. Went back. That's what he does come back to -- but so decree unions to get -- at halftime of the gains but. -- like he was not around all during the 2008 championship year because he felt like. It was those guys attorneys -- populace has probably. Tired of it Larry Bird on the Jumbotron he really didn't wanna takeaways and it's kinda -- Incredible. Incredible affection for the place for the fans that we're here that it it's not it's just that is affiliation with the pacers. Make him feel as though he's got -- state to -- them right now. I think someday it would be great if he could come back to the Celtic organization against some tactics I think he would really."

" and -- last break I just quickly read the chapter about one magic contracted HIV. And I mean is -- be well beyond sports and you wanna read during a goose bumps and read the story of how. Byrd was notified through right magic agent and Jeff twist we all know called bird. And -- immediately had talked to on the phone and bird tells the story. That after five minutes on the phone and he left in magic which cheering him up and -- turned to his wife after twenty minutes line in the bed thinking about things jumped up and said. That's gonna die. In magic to try to -- I mean you talk about their friendship and how deep this goes that I mean that chapters unbelievable."

" Yeah it really is and it's also -- you know it's a little literally is a little bit of news as you know any books -- connect chapters that. Did you discover. That. -- situation that Isiah Thomas beat up the pardon any technique that there. Well you know -- you got no magic tonight they're the best of friends that worked out together during Summers state to vacation if daily. When not when that the pistons used to come and LA depleted clippers if that -- that it currently is car at the airport right they I think it would -- at -- I -- there were like Brothers."

" I'm Emily kissed in the finals --"

" Yeah 88 final they -- before each game and that's sort of what it's started it's under it a little -- had been at. But this is like IV diagnosis you know obviously extremely devastating fanatic but it became if you guys remember back then. If we don't -- all of us. Nobody knew of anybody who was HIV positive that what that a homosexual. So immediately they were there are rumors swirling around about magic sexuality -- devastating not that he was going to didn't Eric. Enough to. And and so he was not on his friend and colleague book is to quell those rumors. Well one day upon rows -- magic -- get a call from -- he says you know like it here and magic stay on system. -- yeah you're above all respect though it is no -- to. And it is certainly not really know what he's doing out there and -- Devastate it -- magic in his wife's cooking it it really destroyed him as a result of that. Their relationship with older for the most part now they did a very good job publicly but keeping -- quiet in all the years we've heard. Rumors about it and speculation about that that it has never publicly ever acknowledged. That his his relationship with -- that they would destroyed evidence and he -- finally do that in this book. And even goes on to discuss between -- you guys remember that it promises let's stop that during and everybody want to blame Michael Jordan."

" It restored to turn on magic but Mexican army there."

" And and now this is why the."

" You mentioned that we learned that that chapter and I know how good reporting you are what did you learn. In this book he must've learned --"

" yet part of that time that the that he. The HIV -- particular -- was well I didn't realize and I step in and make me feel like you've after the fact is what an incredible job David Stern did of keeping things."

" Quiet now magic retired. And dramatically obviously could create played -- prospecting and then wanted to come back."

" And it was one thing for him to play the dream team attempting to play and that that 92 lost -- in Atlanta but they have a comeback of the apparently it was a huge huge thing. And I think but look in in retrospect we all of us as reported into -- up digging when that was going on because the liability."

" And then it stirred and magic we deal with and there was I'm that the current kind of backlash."

" And the and they get a very good job keeping them out of the public got players going to the league think we all play if he's back. Owners of the NBA franchises saint we hope you know what you do like these huge gambling you're taking. You know order calling David Stern saint you can't do that and it starts at I'm gonna do it and and and let it placed them there right now do you what it --"

" Our NBA players for it's safety because that's so we'll have to do you serve Magic Johnson. "

" All declared its HIV positive. Because I'm not. We think about it in right -- so there's no -- technique that I don't think any professional sport and I right."

" the -- this little appetizer with sort of an overview here and I suppose that in the pantheon of great sports rivalries these two guys is a bird and and Magic Johnson. Fit under that on that day as with Russell and Chamberlain are Frazier penalty against Nicklaus and Palmer just off the top of my dad and better. And the dollar yeah yeah yeah and audio all the tennis once you're gonna. But I go Johnny Kelly and yeah but I'm not sure what chemical elements combined to make those and those -- we just mentioned. As much a rivalry as they are but I'm wondering in your estimation. Do you think those chemical elements exist that at some point somebody twenty years from now will be writing a book about LeBron and Kobe."

" You know coming -- that question of the day and I'd like to say yes. But we part of the problems we can play each other for the national championship."

" And that's. What -- cry but the exhibit -- think. They have to play each other lot of new Ali Frazier obviously Mickelson Pomeroy obviously Russell and Chamberlain bird and magic they've got to get together in the finals more than several times right."

" Right right any other public think it is that we look at LeBron Coby -- is that the very very top of his game right now but that in the next two years he's gonna be going on the other side right up front on the way up. The beauty of magic and Larry not only did they played and that hesitated they wanted to believe that same. Exact time but -- most incredibly storied frank and I just don't see. In what commitment it was in May. -- that'll ever happen again if it -- it'll be a great story just like this -- like."

" here dozens and dozens of questions one final one from me com and again congratulations just on writing this book what. Ended -- why you. What did you work just that hard did you gain their confidence did you always have their confidence why I -- about a from afar."

" I've -- lead actress for that Larry and I. You know without me knowing it and docket because the little because in a gigantic it relates to the -- in into Atlantic you know. I never didn't make I didn't like not need to that they -- call from the agent -- you said. This is off the record that Larry gonna be writing a book about his coaching career with Internet police suspect that -- cool. But such is gonna run and names of -- it on me and she said which you like to do it. And I said well let me think about yes yeah. And though that was dated for what it that I finally knew that you know what Larry Bird tested me and believed in me. And it was his -- When magic went to and this is magic again when magic went to Larry about it. But jackets got it right so I can't tell you what an incredible that it's it's an honor out terrorist threat like."

" We'll -- yet but I can tell you from what I have read tool and as you look at every page you say wow and that's and that's a tribute to enjoy your your ability to pull it out of them and their ability to give it to you and your ability got -- craft at the wrong up there for us to digest. VoIP if if you view of what you saw the you know compete head to head -- about them. This is this is that a brilliant piece of the work by you. -- really appreciate a talking next week and Jerry's in the studio right. All right Jack -- a problem you just call win the game was ours Larry Bird and Irvin Magic Johnson quicktime out will be back."