Tom Verducci, SI.com

" Welcome back fourth and final hour Dennis without Callahan Michael Felger alongside the -- jury should be back tomorrow. Joining us on the eighteenth the hotline AT&T your world liver the author of the co author of the Yankee years. Our -- poverty to the senior baseball writer for Sports Illustrated hello Tom how are you. I am well are you today Barry. Well congratulations on the book I'll tell you this you here's the best. Plug I can give -- iced it up until 2:15 in the morning reading up on the first EI at this is pretty good for a guy gets up at 3:45 in the morning. Your breath I'm tired but that's okay yeah I I think I think two things here right off the top. Oh win anybody asks you or Joe Torre during this book tour interview. Did you trade the Yankees in the trust that was in the clubhouse to me indicates. They have not read the book if you read the book you don't get that sense at all this feels like -- trail whatsoever this feels like. We are learning the unknown cause and effect information behind major stories were all aware rob and it's not a betrayal -- in my mind having read it."

" And I -- I I think that is huge point and you're right at people have read the book. You and that's what they're coming away with I think perhaps that was. Early -- you know nine days before the ball quickly and how not publication date the New York tabloids got a -- a balk and NATO quote that I can't. Concept I context and -- chop this thing up that they territory tell. As people began to read a book especially all the major reviewers to -- the bookkeeper unit in the New York Times the LA times The Wall Street Journal. Bloomberg News and I'm not. Is they say exactly the same thing he says that's that's what the motivation ambitions statement this book lies. To be a historical document how the Yankees want why they didn't win. And how baseball changed around them in the years that they didn't win so it it's I'm like you that you picked up -- like I said. Agent takes reading the book for people understand that."

" And you know it's it's beautifully written and -- blow smoke attitude here but but I I believe that the the the ability to tell the unknown cause and effect of these behind the scenes stories. Is really what sort of -- a very subtle way makes it's still readable as an example -- people -- bottom -- of what the hell you talking about as an example if I said you Aaron Boone -- trouble is a great example of just that the unknown cause and effects behind major events in Red Sox and Yankee history."

" Yet here -- one day you know it the year -- series basically that playoff hero. For the Yankees and against seven home chronicles three weeks in lake City Hall credit card that shot clearly going to work out of that they need to -- all the marketing says. Able to have a little bit neurotic GM hey I'll play -- pick up game at last -- hopes. And he's like why -- that it need to work out today that would that would get the chance you are getting a ticket Carty don't work out and and -- because play basketball and you know the equivalent of mrs. O'Leary's cow kick -- over the electorate Chicago because -- It's set up an entire chain of events he -- out of the -- hopes Yankees need a third baseman. They can't find on the market and all -- and Alex Rodriguez is that is probably the Texas Rangers that the -- are such as long enough a month earlier. They're looking to dump him the contract on somebody. At all on the ball all the -- shotgun marriage -- the Yankees in desperation need -- third baseman could get out Adrian Beltre the Dodgers. And that's Alex -- of the Yankees and obviously on. Not all and Alex Rodriguez but when he look at timeline and how things change shortly as Torre -- had. Like a huge event. You're right. The bone to pick up basketball game set so already. Elements in an event and emotion that. It was fun to go back and look at it and say why it is kinda like we're hoping and yes as they one point one."

" Yeah you're you're tied together beautifully because you make the point -- would have lot of it this way until I read your words that Aaron Boone's home run in the postseason off Wakefield was not to begin with not the beginning -- of anything it was the end of this Yankee -- of dominance."

" It really wise and I know people try to go back in it they had a lot a World Series title at 2000 but to me. He really was don't read it had a great pain and Ellsbury in -- especially their pitching staff was just tremendous and you know that that small sample postseason finally got up and bit -- great where they actually had helped -- the Marlins and lost the series. And it wasn't like -- had a bad team and era came on last place. But to me that was where really into crumble because don't forget after that World Series they loss at a rotation Roger Clemens any -- well. And they went to -- all right handed rotation this community huge mistake Yankee Stadium. Anybody especially when have a ball park that favors left and it starting pitching. And they went with really older guys go to war strike out guys guys they brought over from the National League and that was the beginning a lot to pitching mistakes that they had made. And and I really believe that our work began to slip and obviously don't axes the 82004. -- yet what the Red Sox but I think he events were sent motion. Before that championship series and that includes the Boston and as well not just what Yankees did or didn't do."

" How big of a legacy do you believe that steroids should play in the Yankee story."

" You know that the great question and it certainly legitimate to ask. You know where those teammate by spirit that only read the the obviously the Mitchell report where a lot of the 2000 Yankees especially when mentioned now. Now if clarify that a lot of those guys are mentioned but not all their use was part of that specific years in cases as it was after some cases for. But the way I look chaotic guys is that the Yankees were no different than thirty -- back that -- really truly believe that I think the Mitchell report. Gave you a New York centric view of the spirit Erin if only because the koskie. And Mac Sammy that those two guys. Really not a whole lot of information but no the Mitchell report so it -- New York centric a lot -- on the New York Yankees. -- some days they're I don't think they are a clean air or any dirtier than anybody else and and in terms of a general sense of what was going on baseball that -- I think you can pick just about any. World championship team from the so called there there -- and say the very same thing about them."

" Tom migrated you have there wore a Boston area trainer who got mixed up in this Hewitt it's in a lot of Red Sox -- is no doubt in my mind. About that however I can't imagine that every team. Would have -- a cy young type pitcher who -- himself in a boiling hot though whirlpool and then would jump out and be robbed. With -- lotion. In the testicles by the team trainer."

" How happy. I don't think that was -- for thirty games but. I you know high level -- insert this steroid era obviously. They're the top of the food chains now has the the only players. Were already. At a very high level and whatever those guys were -- illegally. Or against unwritten rules of the game are certainly against what -- be immoral."

" Yeah about hold on I'm -- jump and I mean by Clement certainly at one time was one of the great pitchers in the game and you have to think that was before the steroid thing but by the time it was a Yankee. I don't think he produces for the Yankees like he -- without Jews."

" Yeah I think that the point that you look at people who were doing -- who wore a lead athletes. Who took their game to another level in the late thirties. And certainly when you look at bonds the greatest years of his career -- returned 36 years old and if we never seen anything like that happening and that era. It seemed to be happening way too much and obviously it has the evidence comes out some of these guys like Clemens and bonds has -- people. You get the same day. And how we begin to understand why we are seeing numbers that we've never been off for a career -- that we had never seen before. Do you think you're right ninety thank. You know those elite guys -- performance enhancing drugs -- Across the board from that most marginal player the minor -- the elite player but it you're talking about everybody bumping up a level. That marginal player the public that player to -- player becomes a great player. Well we saw what happened what happened to be great players say they -- level we've never seen before especially relative to the age."

" Yeah I mean he it will auction -- forget now of the type that time. Going through treatment that the streak on cancer. And it's reluctantly gave the clubhouse and George Steinbrenner eating hamburgers and Torre's office. And here comes climate that after the -- episode and VIP he walked up at Rogers -- to settle down and Roger he's that it just kinda. In nineteen but just vote tear or two there really cry and control. You know I just remember after the and that. You know Roger was still on edge hours and hours that image and the -- in 1 o'clock in the morning I was talking to the parking lot. And you know -- it the event it just happened or is actually you know in between innings. Eat everything seemed to be so fresh and emotions were still. Bubbling on the surface there and and I can only -- that pat white what it was lightly and I mean. I think -- yet another writer obviously. One of the greatest competitors -- and it never been no doubt about that -- over the line at times there's no doubt about it when he go back to the playoff game way back vehicle."

" Right he's overrated competitor -- I think when he gets on top UN is the schoolyard bullying it's in the first popped out fine he can do that you hit him. And he cowardice on. Crap his -- here pitching against Pedro and that famous playoff game crap his pants several years for the Red Sox -- in the Oakland game -- started jumping a retarded not overrated and that was generally -- that when Roger Clemens after he lost the next day or that night would blame everybody but himself I didn't think that was generally known around baseball."

" No I can't say why I think that's the case are obviously McNamee has -- framing net and I mean he's worth listening to it because my name -- with a guy. So many hours anyone out there first thing in the morning they have strict pitch innings of work about in talking about the night before Pollack -- I would say that well recognized about Roger and this goes to this mystery today at 8% with the evidence and in a courtroom. Partly congressional hearings. And I've never seen a single bit of concession and that's kind you know I've never seen him stand up after game and say I had not a not every pitch or even that he called back there were days coming up. It's going to happen Roger would never make that concerns. You know it was always hated hitters made the adjustment or you know strikes solid record there -- is pleasant. It didn't you know he never -- that it did happen. -- part of what made him great was any network since. -- any single thing about how small -- debate. Gone back to that game he referenced about pitching against Pedro et cetera anybody got clocked. You know Torre recognized that Torre talked about going out and about anti taking the all telling him. Listen I know -- you're hurting I think at that point it was an accurate -- something. But he basically told Roger. Don't get the media any excuses here you know you gotta take this one. I'm more Roger really really did say something along the line and there wasn't great they give them credit they've made it just passes much of a concession -- ever project."

" much is made in the book about the the personality clash but the differences between A-Rod and Jeter on his baseball team everybody's pretty much aware of the Esquire article where A-Rod sort of -- Jeter under the bus that was the beginning of the end of whatever earlier relationship they had. But I thought the anecdote the beautifully described how -- A-Rod and Jeter are wired so differently as people and as players took place not the club balls or not on the field but in Jeter's apartment over television set."

" Yeah -- meat -- He's got a guy there is the cut hair Favre and Alex is that Mariners had better get -- and you know after the game and and and Alex want to -- a west coast game on the other TV. What our children can't find it a game of baseball package -- that the GA will once counter that you baseball package not. It due to assess Austria one line that I haven't yet stuff I'll watch it. And Al specialist just law. All the way he could believe that I mean Alex is -- baseball rat knows everything about the game watches games all the watches games. Replay the game started day or you know talk shows -- our TV during the day you'd plug into baseball quite Forsett and it was beyond his comprehension that Derek Jeter did not. At the baseball package on detainees at all what you watched. He couldn't get up at -- you know you're right that really cruise line is how much. Alex really needs and lot of time on game protect Jeter but they don't want the game but -- the game but he's playing and he -- that moment I'll. Think he's plugged into what other people are doing around baseball terms of tell who's done well with a home run leaders all those kinda things he's not a huge fan of Major League Baseball bat -- play that game. And I agree that yet that you make good point you know he Esquire article a lot of people brought that up that that's why don't get a lot. I respect that was one of the sent them along the road out these two guys are wired completely differently and mascot more to do it that developers to."

" it's pretty clear it brought his preening imposing and once people like human needs the records and once the records and by the way comes across very clearly that nobody in baseball works harder than A-Rod but you're you're you're right it it doesn't in the Jeter cares about all those kinds of things and needs those kinds of things you you could tell an interesting story about. A rods need to make people understand how smart he is of a baseball player party know that but when he gets the second base he was the whole world and -- smart he has."

" Any other businessmen everybody taught from a young age you know check the -- the outfielders like they're on second base so you know what all my fault land what you can score from second base -- base -- It'll turn around almost like you're all a -- For refereed signaling a first down. And make -- exaggerated pointing most -- each one of the three outfielders bone on --"

" Closely I'm -- I object he -- an object and you."

" Yet they want everybody to know that this is what I've been out doing the right sang and and doing my homework here and it -- best friend of the bullpen coach Mike Brazil just told them you know not enough but it was sentenced by a bit about it that you know everybody knows -- great. You want it very lucky you but everybody is already looking at junior Alex Rodriguez. "

" Now I acknowledge what you and John started this conversation off by saying that lot of the salacious details that are presented and were presented earlier about this book. Put them in context that's not what the book businesses in the tell all. That being said there is some dirty laundry aired here and I -- among many -- surprised at Joe Torre. Would be the guy to -- that laundry especially when he still in the game but really under any circumstance and so there's one question I have above all others I think. Many people -- That is why did Joe Torre do this."

" Well I guess first large probably had to worry that that very laundry is that territory. You know he's -- mentioned -- spoke about dirty laundry."

" Well I don't know. Revealing that Robert Roger Clemens and his balls whacks before every game when he was pitching -- Sort of a dirty laundry detailed just a will caddie stuff here between -- and Jeter I would consider to be something dirty I mean I love that I'm not. Disparaging at times and why would Joe Torre get involved with that."

" Well we've been brought heavy territory you know did not say that -- that Roger climate it ever mentioned the war aid -- about Alex Rodriguez. You know why is it's been disappointing that people you know -- in the bucket that Joe Torre said that Joe Torre that added that they did great first burst -- Or at all to. You know Joe Torre doesn't lock you into any unlit -- with this book. There's nothing there that we happened already known as a subject matter that Alex Rodriguez had trouble fitting into New York. I think get a rabbit -- Johnson had difficulty in New York. There was bit uncomfortable dynamic between Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez. You know both the subject we we know. I mean there's more elevation air about them. He doesn't go into anything close to anybody private life. Anything has focused totally in the concept hot context and team dynamics."

" But and that's. What it's we get the good juicy details I mean that's important to me I mean -- lateral. While you downplay that the whole name of -- game has given us a good juicy details and we got him in this."

" Accuracy -- the historical thought document he epic -- the history -- twelve years. This area in baseball I think it. History. You know. If you want to cut it. About it there's been -- Joe Torre was reading a sanitized version -- and he'll play but play. How the Yankees beat. Beat the Red Sox and Red Sox the Yankees and you know what -- politics -- You know in history. In -- going to write the write history and culture. And I would tell you I can tell you guys that these single motivation. From Joe Torre from day one so that day that a lot paid was printed on the -- what to bring people insight. Into this history of the game. And baseball not anymore not the last. It was to inform people and bring them man and debt to. That is totally what his motivation was -- but because had a front -- that are the history of baseball. And -- bringing people insight into. How that happened."

" And again I'll pick up here Tom Purdue Q where -- started those people actually read the Balkan amateur that Michael has read the book and I happen it will -- and it shows it shows you just get much different feeling this visual of the book and start going through it that it is much more of an historical things and while there are some things in there the you'll find fascinating like the Roger -- And the all the stores all the anecdotal stuff it really it's all support behind the scenes things a things we already know about but I would ask this Tom was writing the book in the third -- person a careful consideration to make work the way that you would -- wondered it to work."

" Well I hit -- My perspective was that I really enjoy it three nights in -- the collaboration between Tony Norris. And but there's but it breaks up whoever is obviously gate and great access there is great insight Eric what goes on the clubhouse. The managers -- based suppliers. But that could work with a book looking how baseball has changed about I was looking at the Yankees and and people were saying. They don't win anymore you know while the Yankees went championships world championships like the east. And you know what I thought the baseball world has changed so much people are are not recognizing that that it's not 1990. The anymore that there's so many teams now that -- had a chance. That are running things and smarter way -- revenue sharing has changed the game. So I want to explore all those things about the game had changed around -- explain I don't know what happened to them and partly why they aren't winning world championships. And how I I could do that. You know Joe Torre can not write that book in the first person that you're reading her reading a book and the for a manager of the Yankees. -- bring you inside. The decision making process -- Boston Red Sox and explain either how revolutionary impact. Competitive -- Major League Baseball there's not going to be a stretch of authenticity of that reading that from the -- and Joe Torre that I had to be done any third person --"

" And again all the respect and I haven't read it I'll act you feel guilty about it 'cause like. Got a couple jobs in other things to do I will get to it. Bought for you all put and David Tom to put -- detail about single white female obsession and then sort of complain about people fixating on that detail. I mean come on that's that that that's naive or disingenuous you know."

" I don't know fractured what -- didn't do what people are going to sign I mean."

" I first saw it your brain damage show at -- interview in -- and you haven't read the book but -- professional. And he can't do that you can't be giving me your opinion. Tabloid report -- of the secular market place specifically he read the book on single white female it was presented as a -- direct quote isn't inside joke among teammates. In the clubhouse vernacular as -- up -- do it Joe Torre has not into anybody calling Alex Rodriguez's name is that the clubhouse epic these are real people. Because sometimes -- think that people look at sports that they look at it like a child looks at Disneyland. You know that's a real -- but -- there -- had. You know these guys particularly being that both human -- where people -- players I mean it out quite an historic Johnny Damon. You know -- the guy you know you guys know well he wanted to quit in 2007 he went home. He used to -- really what I call battle fatigue in mr. assembly missed its father couldn't play based on mark. And it really took him three months Nazis before he came around and decide you want to continue playing and and people look at the Yankees according 129 and expand why is that teams spent. You know fired a manager going to meet Sammy has center fielder really the only guy right and energy. As far as base running and an even deeper sense for the Yankee. Well question whether he wanted to play cannot you know these are not it's not thinking about these are not up at -- numbers either real human being."

" Tom why did Joe Torre picked this time to write this book review why not wait until after you retired."

" He was going to do that but if he came back and and then the Yankees I believe because we started the project he still as a manager of the New York Yankees."

" Jimmy the -- bitterness doesn't and one of one of the article aren't you should be asking this question how every one of the jobs that you felt whether it's after that I'm fascinated Tom was the the end of the curse chapter detailing the Red Sox Yankees 2004. Robbery of course and what that meant to both teams. But the destructive force in the influence that it had on the Yankees the Armageddon aspect which Francona and Torre vote detailed. What that did to New York Tom -- stick in the years to recover from and they're still recovering from a right."

" I think I think it was any other team that -- lord of the Yankees if that would not have been separate. And I think it really says is -- a higher level of frustration. Among the Yankees. You know that the Red Sox have always been that -- state lesson we are not close the game is or how great the rebel regret was that the tank. Yankees always believed that they come out top. When it in the Red Sox slip -- on -- wanna. Finishing off in. And Yankee Stadium. You know I think that was an emotional learning Yankees. It is not the fact that they denied and recyclable World Series but because of that we it was the Red Sox it was like the damage was travel there and and I really believe that it's. It's said and frustration that sort creep into the way they want about player acquisition. That's why I think they got their -- off the ball player development system that really needed. If not complete retooling needed a reorganization that needed some of the look at against it why are we not. Bringing up players like we used it an ivy. But they couldn't devote those energies to what really was -- sort of fatal flaw there. Because they just had to get back in the World Series of regret but the very next season so that involve all Major League personnel and tension in the -- I'd create in the -- trade get. -- try to get Kent around America and the -- sort of desperation to trying to find most players to get them back about the red. So I think going to break point in May that it wasn't just how they lost that series but the fact that was the Red Sox I think really hurt the Yankees."

" And with a hot and within the context to the owner obviously your bookie in my estimation just underscores -- everything we -- about the owner George Steinbrenner of being a volatile unpredictable bully with a kind of screwed up approach to managing people to to quote Denny Green he is what we thought he was and I guess I guess Joe Torre among all the managers he hired and fired. Figure out a way to handle him as best he possibly could."

" You know -- I think get -- cut both ways with Steinbrenner -- not called in the order the most dynamic assets for the organization and I truly believe that that in reality he. He never allowed anybody to relax and I know. Pretoria that makes his job difficult but up and have a system everybody knew what was expected of them. You know that the story there the clubhouse manager. He's. You know talking about how he got it. Guys together opposite he's talking about fantasy football roles for the fact that the league season and he's he's ever thought I almost certainly. Switches here 180 degrees and -- start going into Vince Lombardi speech about how ordered it to keep their respective paired up the clubhouse carpet -- get these guys that they need and and -- kind of game awakened said that that parable like keep it up. And you know people more aware all the time that George was around any corner so everybody was not and it and I think prologue time that was a good thing for the Yankees. And I know it can wear you down and bad times they can beat you down. But I think he brought out the that the people because he demanded the best."

" Tommy -- to go out ask you Manny Ramirez question the one you're 25 million dollar offer turned down a where does he turn now are the Giants a player and what the heck is Boris thank."

" I don't know -- they give but I clearly you know eight that -- going to be a much better market out there in general but specifically to mandate that what developed. I spoke that you don't wind up with the Dodgers tonight at I think that because I don't think -- giant. Can really go. Into the kind of money that gotten and it looked. For I think the Giants clearly want steal Manny Ramirez so to speak and I think every shot to. It. Pat on many really is angry at the Dodgers -- don't think he is at the opera I think peaceful trying to help. Put something back together. But. I don't I don't think big -- Giants have the stomach of the money against to a huge bidding war with the -- here I think if you if the Dodgers -- The Giants -- yet have about the Giants are going to cause the Dodgers to the out. And for what I've heard many much prefer -- in Los Angeles reverend effort sisco only because of the weather in the ballpark knew it definitely has pressed. His preference but come back -- the Dodgers so. I think the Giants may get in there again. You know go to a two year deal. -- that gets it done that the same time I think Manny is gonna go back of the Dodgers they have less of a -- the Giants. What can you do here. I think that's where the Giants and Dodgers go back to that two year deal with the thirty -- that -- option you know probably -- mid sixties to. Try to get a deal not I think he's going to wind up with the Dodgers they still believe that."

" Q final question for me aside from the book at what point does Barry Bonds waved the white flag of surrender and try to prevent himself from going to prison and furthermore how does all this impact Roger Clemens waiting in the wings and watching from Texas."

" Yeah well requested. I don't think that -- is going to it and here I think he's not giving him because Greg Anderson -- giving him. And I hit it Dominik Greg Anderson let I think -- try to cut a deal. And you know bodyguards trial but there's no indication that Craig Anderson is going to let here I think bonds is saying you know I spoke and I shot a as long as they don't have Greg Anderson. You know up Internet stand. I've got a shot he had -- remember guys the trial not about whether he -- or not it's whether he lied on that standing in front of the grand jury and say it did not knowingly take steroids so. I don't think you can I don't think you're potentially -- guy that it's gonna go to trial and I think. Huge called going to be here the next couple a bit and see what the judge allowed. And that it but that's going to be huge here so I think. And I think the same picture of Roger I actually a lot of Pete Rose and Roger Clemens met. -- said before there's no concession and the management. And I truly believe that like. Barry Bonds so they're going to go all the way to the wall here I just don't see anybody cutting a deal at this point."

" Is numbered coaching the book is called the Yankee years it's fascinating it's a page turner don't judge that until you -- I would suggest the Yankee years at all this latest details don't matter you should put him and -- don't want people talk about. And now I'm going to let my other job sort of spent all David you ought to I don't want to be unprofessional. Robert thanks that's I'm. -- issue with Dennis and Callahan."