Nov 28, 2012|
We discuss whether or not Clemens, Bonds and Sosa have any chance of making the Hall of Fame, and what some of the circumstances would have to be if they do.
Pete and Matt react to the signings and re-signings the Patriots agreed to over the weekend. Matt gives his perspective on the fractured relationship between the Patriots and Wes Welker.
Tom E Curran, Pete Sheppard and Jack Edwards break down all the comings and goings from Gilette Stadium on a day when the changing of players really heats up for the Patriots.
We discuss the only topic of the day... the departure of Wes Welker and the signing of Danny Amendola.
Four topics we haven't touched upon... although today we kind of did... four Wes Welker topics are tackled.
Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
We're gonna ask Max what he was thinking afterward that Carl has called up -- Jeff Green -- yes. I guess you'd draw out of form and ask him what was going to ask my interest. As I told you got tripped up a little bit he was so overwhelmed. There was no napkin involved none of that now. Is normal stuff I did it go you ready for the hall of fame voting mission additional before this is -- this is going to be for. Barry Bonds Roger Clemens. Sammy Sosa is it safe to say that none of the theory. We'll get in this year who knows whether they ever get -- -- but none of the three getting is that safe to say yes and Sammy -- you're. -- disappear. Is gone and Mark McGwire still on the -- on the ballot cavities not picking buddies I can't most of our campus also will be looked at a lot like McGwire. In that -- steroids are involved by the way he never tested for -- He cheated with a corked bat but he never tested positive for steroids and other Barry Bonds right put people believe. That Sosa did it so therefore he's going to be viewed the same respectable but you take away steroids. In the rest of his skill set doesn't make him a whole thing interesting guy is Clemens. Because. Of of what happened. Over the summer with the trial so do you think. You think that helped them in terms of the voting. It and -- on this -- -- -- -- I certainly didn't hurt nor did her but nobody believes it I mean come. People looking and it's so it's illegal thing -- that he -- he didn't prove anything to gain anything in the court of public opinion I don't believe so Michael why I think. He certainly -- disaster from Google search deal and beating up -- Bubba but no. I don't think he gained anything it's -- -- it is intriguing when you have. The best hitter of -- generation. And the best picture of generation up at the same time for the hall of fame and neither one of gates and so. You're right it probably won't get in about an -- of same probably. But actually I just say they they're not gonna get it but I wonder what the vote is going to be may have a hundred people vote for. For Barry Bonds. I think he missed remembers. I -- people I work I think Roger Clemens who boarded McGwire get a 12% was that will will look at. I can't see them getting more than. 45% of the of the needed votes maybe 30%. And and I say that I do not believe I'll be shocked if either one of those guys Clemens or bonds get in this year because you have to have the we have to have the discipline vote this year we have to be able -- you you're wrong. So people are gonna sit there and say OK I'm slapping the wrist the first I don't believe they're gonna get in the second time well that's what I think down the road. Eventually the writers are gonna get worn out with a listing them get to the point we're -- cultural theory of baseball. In which is going to be very difficult to put anybody in the whole thing they've got to Wear you down to the point where guys have finally gonna say you know what. Let's just voted man or CNN -- let everybody figure it out after the. That's apart I don't like a little more tension in the voting. Want a little war accountability I'm from the voters in a real discussion because the way it's set up now. You can kind of beyond the fence and you can be on the fence for fifteen years. Before you have to make a decision in a story on espn.com. Yesterday. -- Mike Mike Smith idea affects all of you know baseball writers' association and he and he went on MLB network radio yeah he's got to. That they'd they'd hate Mike -- -- his idea is to have the writers involved. Pick and finalist and the writers leave the room. So okay you got ten finalists they -- we will take that. We will vote on New -- finalist but you'll not be part of the final decision making process has an idea that could help -- -- set free food in the other room that guys leaving a free -- the other room but as writers going on and on about. Mike Smith's. Plan to fix the hall of fame that comes up with his own suggestions. And so Andy's got a couple that went here says number one set guidelines on the steroid guys. It or. Not the baseball writers' hall of fame so remove their ability to set the agenda and number two this is a great. Yes some good questions here he says to five years on the ballot. Forced voters to make up their mind agreement that. He says look I like that Bert Blyleven finally made the hall of fame he was will be on the line of qualification but the slow build up to election is unnecessary. Why Jim writes -- not dale Murphy great question why Andre Dawson and not to -- to the other question. So at any in any Gaza and I was make voters accountable. The baseball writers association of America took the right step with the season awards now take this step and let the public know exactly whose vote. Because you sit there how easy easy is it to sit there and -- -- -- I think -- -- perfect. -- penalty. -- the or the penalty not vote. You just appointed me to your parent living room. And get punished Barry Bonds can punish Roger Clements and nobody ever -- -- your name you never have to defend yourself. We know everybody is out there explain yourself. White why would you vote for an and it's fun whatever your position is OK stick with it. If your position is that you don't believe that Roger Clemens should ever be -- -- fame because you don't know where you believe that he did steroids OK that's your position. And that's how it's going to be which can't change your mind in seminary years and Roger Clemens now you've you've done your time. You've done your penance not going to be in all of it right. If you believe the way -- Barry Bonds the dominant player to win BP's in Pittsburgh five MVPs in San Francisco. All the greatest left handed hitter I've ever seen in my lifetime. All effects are okay. That that's a position with the Delaware Vargas. Just point out many times over the years on the show and end. In a shot -- was adamant about why not have as many years that you know fifteen years or whatever because. Though the dad -- throw another pitch he doesn't get another bad situations change you look at things differently but I don't think you can do that. I think you have to make a decision within the five years I agree with -- which -- an impact -- plenty of time I think it is -- fifteen yeah a little and it -- -- one year we don't want you know if a player. In the in the post comments in a totally different here because of the suspicion. All of -- -- but you know when a guy retires. Whether he was a dominant player in his -- to my argument always for -- Is that was he one of the dominating hitters in a period that he played absolutely no question about it. So what why even worried about the numbers -- -- baseball the numbers change all the top. Well the baseball Saber metrics right now tell us all the numbers -- a follower for all these years are trashed -- Almonte are proud as Clinton so. Go. Did you write -- thanked him show up so I I don't understand why and you don't want wanna do. Five years are they are already paying a deadline to -- they deal with it every single day and in their job to -- -- five -- -- -- make up your market where we. Any time because after that. The stats. It in a strange way you start to take the stats for you kind of glazed look you glaze over the stats. An impressive stats don't become as impressive to you or it the other way stats that you thought work you know borderline. Ten years ago. The game changes your per year perspective changes and all of a sudden you have changed to that player -- about something in your mind. Just what the guy's career is over you pretty no no you much good things about his game at all about the schedule watching him. You know through his -- might not been watching him every single -- could you might have been and different city but your eyes. You know sneaking over to see what they would do went on a day to day basis stricken box scores watch -- highlights at night watching some of the other games. I think he can make it a more qualified decision would you do it at that time that stretch you know I so here's the album. -- Is going to be up on that back and I think he's it. And I hit a couple of years ago people didn't think it was him but I think he's going to be needed here and votes -- luxury dedicated I don't think he's gonna get in in the first. Because again nearly however that but this but that's that's without a penalty Obama I was of Babe -- that was -- that Willie Mays never went in unanimously people don't going unanimously there's always somebody that says you don't want -- Babe Ruth. Should have been -- all of it. Suppose people out. -- believe we use. For Willie raised up a unanimous choice for all of it we use -- we watched the game. So that's why that's why and on going on the road of of of getting him to lose that verses. It's that people vs instinct people. Because you gotta have a company's jet -- won't hold up for shale well ought to east whose -- don't hold up -- just look at the stat. If you're looking at a promise Saber -- point of view. Public and Jack wars is numbers right now. If you just look at his numbers now. But if you watch. Jack more. He's all of these -- hall of -- telling you I've seen some and to some great pictures -- fortunate enough to see some great pictures in my lifetime whether it Pedro Martinez Roger Clemens clean. Jack wars. What elixir and on and on about the great great -- you've seen last 2530 years. I'd be tempted to say if I got a game seven to win. -- what kind of role would Jack Morse. -- over anybody see he was he was -- Unbelievable. That big game pitcher. In the numbers the numbers are inflated guys that go out and play 20/20 123 seasons or whatever. Those numbers get inflated but how many of those years. Where he'd just another guy. He probably was terrific for 78 of those years but the rest of the years. It was just another guy. And that's what Jim Rice was faced with all the time mr. rice had like eight solid years. And they were a couple of or wrapped around America's he was having some physical problems that were great then obviously forced into retirement because of physical issues. So many. That's a Dominik period if you go -- a decade and you can be dominant player. That long a period that I'm sorry you should be -- you shouldn't suddenly because you can play 22 with 23 years you can stretch it out. You suddenly have better numbers than these other guys and that's what a lot of people try to make comparisons with the plate for element. And yet in the thing is with. The other thing about Jack Morse and he was at that age where in that era where we were starting to get out of 300 innings pitched. 30300. Innings per season for guys and down at 225 to fifty. Look at him in the eighties couple years and 8293. Innings. 1986 to -- 671982. To -- 66 innings pitched so. Wasn't always great gave up a tunnel home -- part of that Tiger Stadium. But he was a well -- rugged. Like. It was a clean. In between finesse pitcher. You know it. Jack wars from was was. You picture the old west. And tough cowboy coming to town okay. Got to deal with that guy was -- somebody give the ball to -- save the bullpen. US Jack -- to go eight USQ Nicole the complete game. Even if he's given up five or six runs early. After our he's got a he's gonna compete with the Bulldog so I think we're certainly hoping by the numbers -- they would Curt Schilling. Is the same way. Curt Schilling was that Smart pitcher. Who was on some bad teams it was good on some great teams as well and we know what he did in the post -- I was gonna say that yes that's the difference because postseason is what it's all about. Winning championships is what it's about having an unbelievable. Record in postseason where you're on the hit double that's what it's all about showing it to me is an absolute all of that but it's unmistakable. Don't take -- is a -- a break right now you're correct but one more thing moment in corporate Indian. Jack wars or things are pro or amateur and compares -- -- of this is this is accurate I think Jack wars. 1984. Was. Roy Halladay before yeah. It's -- there's horse. Got here today to give you what you need you want nine in the united today yeah no question about it Schilling on the other hand is dealing with a -- post season. That probably could not be topped by more than two with three pitchers. In the in the history of the game but what is the fight for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens we get to the phone calls next to -- public. About a bright a lot of people a tax on the AT&T sex like AT&T forgy LT EAT and T. Rethink pops -- at and people very opinion come on come on out. This -- exterior 339. Just be honest be honest with me. Did just see Jack -- at Texas that Jack mores Jack -- finished seventh. The Cy Young voting in 198419841. Of the greatest teams of all time 1984 tiger's 35 and five start. The best pitcher one of the best the best team we've seen. It said -- is finished fifth seventh and Cy Young voting in 84 Morse is some Mike Mussina. You -- you have got to be on that matter all it. That is what got up without a prescription as many -- -- -- Jack wars and Mike Mussina. -- -- -- About being -- -- to break up an apartment. And all star team 123. War. 56 time all star he was in MVP inside voting. In the granted that 112. 34567. Other times I'm pretty. -- pretty again. I'll explain it it was a wind was a one with the numbers -- you look at the numbers are not Colin Powell admitted you just look at. Pitching number two views advanced stats today on Jack Morris. He comes off looking line a John -- But he wasn't. Numbers anyway -- schedule was at 32020. Win season. -- like yeah I understand he just the number eight advanced stats are not kind to. Jack wars career ERE pluses 105 which means he was just above that. So -- is he are much better at home on home offers. So we're suddenly going to use advance -- for forty in players who played the game when we weren't using those advanced stats even though. We've already voted players into the whole thing when we're using those ancient art. Steps right. As we do the same thing we could find a lot of guys were in all ready right. If it who'll probably don't they -- out right now to the to the so called -- entered into an -- of a known on the flip side. You have some guys. Who were not hall of famers we're getting a lot of love now for hall of fame because. Of events that. Item -- so. I here's here's the easy way or the other guys in that are that are out here by the way Craig Biggio. Mike Piazza could hear her but not really at his position not a strong defense player at his position that's why he got moved up there in the course. I check Morse is still out here Jeff Bagwell. -- will also get tagged. Where's the -- into the -- of tested positive people believe. He's one of those guys so they don't rumors out there. In Tim -- I I contend that bonds and Clemens. And and -- a mature as a whole thing but bonds and Clemens will get the major slap on the wrist. And their votes will be deflated. For the first year and maybe the second third until people finally say. We -- whole area here without putting significant contributors. On into the whole thing can we do this order we just throw up our arms and say screw it. Coach Erica. In a steroids Clemens obviously did and it's it's meant. And -- will will probable asterisk next to it in our -- mind. And will say that it's it's please steroid era. I think though that show. Will get helped by the fact that he's being come here. Two guys who did steroids and if you look at curt Schilling's body it's hard for anybody -- vision that he took anything but Viagra. Okay he picked up short I don't want that and he thank you don't want him but it's good to see a guy that you look at say. I don't know he might have taken steroids no you don't do that we -- And get you looked at at the post season performance. At the that they -- and then. You know what he had to deal with the bloody sock is gonna help him. Where bonds and Clemens are gonna I gonna get destroyed by the steroids he's going to get help on the -- -- -- I don't think it's the first year I think eventually gets because. The first year everybody's gonna find some you know. Well look we needed to -- that people are gonna point some negative -- Some -- let's -- city out to the -- what you talk about it Michael Clements Michael. That's no problem Michael. I heard the same compensation. Good contribute to -- your mind I'd like talk about standards. And I think. When warm it is talking about consideration or particular. You're being inducted in the ball that we should employ some list he's a rock -- an -- such. IP. The thing speaks for itself. Something Morris do you eat -- entire Major League in wins in the 1980s. -- -- -- -- It's enough to shore. Induction in my view when you -- solve the like bat that is no authority over particular period of time I think it -- me. The opposition. You're you're right in people constantly wanna compare a ball player. From one aero two others you can't do that -- that the hall of fame should be. The best players for that era that's what it should be the guys who dominated the game -- -- one of those -- Yeah and a big gotta disagree with you all I I don't I am in the minority the distinct minority. When it comes to this. I think -- hole. The sport. Intelligence they got sports and -- Places true weight our post season performance. And I think that. The extent that one touched once distorting what our purpose because we again. Baseball under 62 being I'm a bigger measurement I want the bigger slice well I wanna get everything. And not put too much importance on the policies. Because -- -- when you kit do you bring Opie and quite OC. I ought to be great. You can revolutionize my act the way and you know we try to. Connecticut as a trigger let's let's switch back is that little. When your little -- And you throw the ball against the war something against the brick wall and your kid your dreaming of where you war ship there today. It's July 14. It's were playing in the Kansas City -- 6000 people in there and I. All of you -- -- envision yourself. In game seven of the World Series with a 38298. I'm not gonna disagree that a lot of people think that way don't get. Out. I can't. Eric are you never envisioned winning the world's eight. You never thought about being in the World Series -- years and we are all have had that moment as acute. My name didn't get anywhere else but it -- around the World Series. Walk gossip from like 9000 people. Walk action and -- walk -- and another 89000. Data at all Ed but I think the other point is yet your your point about the post season is well taken but -- to remember when you're debating. Greatness. Every even if you lose the debate the loser in the debate is still one of the greats of all times so if -- say. Jack Moore is vs Mike Mussina Mike Mussina -- Curt Schilling Curt Schilling. Vs Bert Blyleven. Even if you say well at Bert Blyleven doesn't quite cut it for me is still at it. After the conversation is over you're still talking about great performers so I think that post season part of the conversation is fair because it is nitpicking. You're nitpicking to find out who's the best of the best to -- a great but okay. But take the -- night. I mean you can't live without a battle which. -- I -- why do you not consider this -- -- this little and got in mr. you let. -- international. Outs. The government should not the same guy that last may said that Oracle's -- -- ball club. Along what is it -- -- OK. OK okay and go back dating. -- -- disagree with me here and now I'm gonna come back in 2000 in the summer of 2012. -- -- where he was wrong. 175 complete games reject. It is. Just that it's accurate 175. Innings with about 200 -- Dallas law. He had. Slid twelve. Hours or every one -- pitched 293. In. 193. Innings but people can't appreciate -- now Michael. Because if you are one of the great pitchers in the game. You go seven innings and then you get an eighth inning guy and ninth inning god takes over seventh inning pitcher in the early in the game. He looked the part. Any lived apart OK if you if if you know Jack wars especially vintage Jack Mort before I don't know why shave the mustache on shipments. I'm talking to a mustache look over here from that problem. He he shave the mustache and an inlet departing we have the month the big push you must that -- when you would say. This guy. Guys who he probably has -- ranch somewhere out west. After Montana or Wyoming used to hang out there. You don't wrestle cattle I don't know what he did. But he was that Karen had food supply so indelible it's those voices get complacent analyst Andre -- gorgeous at a dinner. An ace in an 80s80s from central casting. And he he looked the part in the -- the party US the 84 tigers they -- a World Series without Jack -- no they don't. US the twins in 1991. They win the World Series when Jack wars in game seven gave due to any ending -- -- inning complete game. No they don't tell me which you gotta look at the game in the context of wins he played near -- that's you have to judge you can't. Compare from one or two other and talked to a mustache -- here. Do you believe this controversy about storage will. Affect your chances of making to all of thing. I can't control that Charlie did it again like I said all's I can do I went out to play the game of baseball because I love to play it. And that's the way did it I did it right I did the right way and I worked are doing it. During the comebacks that I had I would never made those comebacks if I had somebody that I. That I think highly or. That I admire a lot called me and asked me to come back and go to work form. That took a lot of effort behind the scenes to do but again the hall of fame is great I got a lot of great buddies there thank the guys that are there pave the way for me to do what I love to do. Make a lot of money doing it take care my family some very appreciate of about that so I've got -- control it it's not gonna change my life either way. -- -- -- -- Actor to make Joseph the -- why and how it's 6177797937. Bonds Clemens Sammy Sosa. And of course Curt Schilling. Who gets -- who doesn't get it and some cases in and a lot of people's day. With -- hall of famers you can just say your name you know. If they're in or not. I think that happens maybe 85% of the time I'm not a -- -- -- tell you that some guys. Don't need further analysis they really do. Put -- in those cases of course needs further analysis Brothers. Jack -- -- further analysis but you know those 85% in case went -- and of of Kirby Puckett it was a lot of Kirby Puckett. Get into the hall of fame and Albert Belle was similar numbers -- it well that's easy Kirby Puckett. With a better player than Albert Belle even though. You have those numbers and you can say Albert -- did this -- reported that if you watch them play. You know one guy. Was better in the M Kirby packet was just better and Albert -- and Jack I can do for most of them okay Roger clemens' hall of Famer yet. Not the issues Barry Bonds' hall of Famer yes without the issue now the guy needs further analysis. Is Jeff Bagwell. And how do you explain him meaning. I don't think Bagwell had 500. We're homer in -- 400 something owners of out of that you know again not a no brainer -- again though it's going to be more difficult and for Bagwell. Because of those suspicion. -- give you this even before the suspicions -- the little controversial idea if you can. And go back to this time before. Saint Patrick's Day 2005. Before the congressional hearings. Before the dairy -- word Oscar worthy performance from Raphael Palmeiro. Well dressed with a perfectly knotted tie it holds up his endurance listen now. Take steroids. Everybody applauded at that time they believed him when he was -- -- But go back -- before you knew it but he just rattled him before it's even more Abraham before you know -- Yelp -- marrow test. He had all the numbers and I deal. Didn't think you hold him yet and great seasons -- I never felt like Raphael -- Was just that Dominic guy. Hit and look up and up forty plus homer until great great swing great number. It never was. I know that bonds and Clemens becomes the the poster children for all of this I did not use there and he did you grow and never done so Ryan's. But for Palmeiro and for many remembers it's a no brainer they tested positive. Under MLB. Quote that effect for -- merits a double stupid he got cut twice. So it's easy. The bonds won in the Clemens one and -- much in that people who were saying -- not accurate. They've ever tested positive. We're assuming based on a lot of other things that we know that both of them were doing -- now the argument was always made for -- And it was for a while took steroids thing blew up on Michael in which people say what you don't want is applicable to vote for bonds and up to you why because even. Before he took the step right he was a whole thing. -- the steroids she took because -- Keep up with -- McGwire to keep up with Sosa. But he was already a hall of -- 52 other -- I think it just increased the power battle but but they -- they dislike the guy. Yeah and I'll -- In his personality kill them up there with with the public. See that's accurate that he wasn't hall of Famer before you start doing that stuff. That's a different conversation. There's people who feel. Once you do it whether you are hall of Famer or not you're off the list so I think that's what they're saying about Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens or short he had the numbers. Before you get it but the fact that you did it I don't care what happened afterwards I don't care if you fell off the planet afterwards. I -- -- -- -- to village in therefore there's the punishment they eventually get up fifteen years. I have not been -- and I shot negated that they have finally get I think you know the media now they won't have. Biden right now they wanna punish you right now they wanna tell you you were not that you should not have done that. But as time wears on time out there right it's right. Don't corners -- time out as time wears out to this thing critical to a where you can have a difficult time. Putting anybody. Into the hall of fame for good fifteen years. And what should go to the ballot every year you finally -- -- -- -- and wicked greed being here in the -- pass over god and we did steroids. I think I think the voting will Wear these guys down editor and eventually bonds and Clemens will be an -- and and people will sag but we know they did something we're. -- in and that's and that's leave them high profile. Those are high profile cases bonds and Clemens and so everybody's paying attention and everybody's talking about it. But if you really look at it -- candidates every year there's some years are -- it's more pronounced than others but every year. Here's a guy who doesn't get into the hall of fame and you -- What the writers -- -- on this well when Rupert Alomar didn't give and on the first that that was that was surprising you know. Why I can't act as still -- as a writer seven espn.com. Can dale Murphy that -- a question that went but the real one to me is is rock -- Tim Raines. For amber and I got 85% he's not the one of those recipients -- automatic why I don't think so I don't upon further. When you do further research I would agree with you and you don't put these guys are gonna get in over the next few years because the great players in that -- Are going to be put on hold because of the steroid issue. So guys are gonna sneak up I think Schilling gets. Before bonds and Clemens even though we all molded bonds and Clemens were better players that Curt Schilling. Schilling is gonna get him before those guys we get to more -- phone calls coming up next conviction.
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