Chris Nowinski

It's obvious that the problem is obvious how bad it is guys -- can -- But nobody. Is making a big deal. And it's about time somebody did.

That was a Chris Liwienski who's been on our program a couple of times to be his third appearance -- whisky you probably remember. -- called head games football concussion crisis. Which examine long term effects of head trauma among athletes. -- Welcome good to see you again good to see two things are watching real sports and and by the way I'm a big fan of the show in spite of the presence of the interest Bryant -- beginning of the program but they always do incisive tropical -- things not more so the -- about a week ago. And while I finish watching the Bernard Goldberg peace. On mail lists and -- drama featuring you and your researcher doctor and McKee Texas jurists and I'm not sure but I think what we just washed -- I just watched. Was very very big. There has up until now never been any kind of causal relationship. Between Elvis and any sport or any activity. 10% he -- with genetic everything else was just a question mark right brings considered sporadic. There's no actual evidence as to what was -- an -- to research -- you and doctor and -- is the person you're working for working with. And your collection and I don't mean this is selling the sound. All of athletes brains. Or hurt to examine. You've got something fairly significant. Cracked.

essentially found is that we you know admit we were here two years ago because we are finding out that athletes we're getting a disease called chronic traumatic encephalopathy TE punch drunk disease right. Well we found is that three of those people who had to work punch drunk Red -- TE also developed a LS. And essentially what happened is the proteins that we're destroying the brain moved to their spine as well. And and created symptoms it look like LS but it's it's unique disease we kind of discovered that the disease -- that mimics -- lasts an athletes.

So the protein is as a result of head trauma -- And this toxic protein in some of these cases troubles into their spine -- and that is the onset of essentially payless yeah that's when things don't talk about the numbers here for just the second LS essentially won in a 100000 people -- every year. But in the National Football League in in the Canadian Football League and I guess of the Italian soccer league it's much higher than that.

Much higher at least six times higher in Italian soccer and probably eight times eight to ten times higher -- well no no offense Chris you know and doctor Rex you know have a Ph.D. a guide to start school yesterday. -- today blow -- class yes I too. I mean your smart -- well educated but can this not some cutting edge. Team of Ph.D.s. You know here in Boston Harvard. You know wherever the Mayo Clinic. Welcome they hadn't figured this -- it seems so oh. It's as simple but it seems fairly obvious. Take a knucklehead like you that to lead this charge it's a good question I think this disease itself has been ignored by the medical community primarily because it was really only known among boxers until about five years it is available until they should know better right they put together and -- they -- problems I think that's what the -- medical community is assumed insult. Nobody's ever taken the Sonics have sparking more abuse coolness and in the NFL I was wondered this too. Today and I know you. Dealt with the unifil on this issue do you think they are. Deliberately. Sweeping and the rug ignoring and are turning averting their -- no we're friends now actually -- they weren't they weren't at war there were denying this existed they were very atom which they are trying to get papers retracted their trying to get this off the record for world for a number of years -- conceive them you in the TV movie -- on the street at night -- followed by guys in trench coats who worked for Roger Goodell let. I think it too high profile now right here I mean this clause. The other side we can we can't go back now -- NFL said in December that they actually agreed to concussions can -- long term problems. So I'm that we can't whenever real back from that so it's nice to see it and -- she first walked in -- job getting easier now because people watch in the single low. Man there there there are doing their own doing important work here. Breakthrough stuff in this trial that they they wanna know more break we reassured a lot of NFL guys now calling us to sign up for our brain donation registries huddle have an eleven year vet and call up and say. Let's I wanna sign up onto my part you don't have to call my wife after a dial are to be in the system down and you have 35 -- strip 35 brings -- 400 guys pledged to donate their brains and be studied until it passed away.

may I ask -- before this became famous the conversation went when he picked up the phone and said. All of this is windows -- the conversation go all the try to be -- here no way coming you have to tread lightly.

We have to tread very lightly you have to respect the fact that this is you know -- would have a 48 hours of the death. And so you you can't be pushy just have to. You know express -- condolences and say you know you hate to have this conversation but. There do we mobile learn from this to protect future generation made this call yourself and make the call a guitar. You called. And when we know I mean these famous NFL yeah I mean like I may not -- convert. I make three or four calls a week is human health -- in the us.

Good replica of -- I've gotta -- I've asked I've asked libel astle was anywhere I come across with that usually yell yeah expect that level of you guys during the bring donation registry. Line. -- there are few blows to the head but I think I'm fine now -- epitaph as a percentage of rejection like no go to hell and hang up on you and I.

I I've never got to go to hell have never gotten a hand up so I hated most the times when it doesn't work out it's because either we can't get -- of the family in time right or it's it's good you know the timing doesn't work out so would affect the funerals of most people are actually willing to do is just by circumstance -- elections logistics and you not only.

I think pinpoint a cause possible cause -- us. Which you lay out a way to prevent it which is to me is even more important. I mean in its so simple so you know when you get a head injury when you get a broom a brain grows. You gotta sit out and give it time to heal but rest your car -- him recover and and they didn't do that you know Lou Gehrig didn't do that while legal amber didn't do it. You know Steve Smith didn't they get -- they got the you know saw stars. They get that the cut mild concussion it went right back in the game and got another one rated met.

And that's actually that particular turning this resurgent a policy for kids is really the name of the game and so -- just passed a bill here in Massachusetts. -- requiring annual concussion education but also for high school athletes can't go back to the same game when they're suspected of having concussion.

What is the benefit ultimately come it and -- your mind the prevention of what you just talked about kids up college NFL. Or ultimately finding the cause leading you to a cure avail us which is the bigger. Target.

Well -- that's a great question that they live there. Treatment in the cure is going to be very hard to find -- a lot of time -- money a lot of researchers the prevention aspect is really quite easy hand in the sense that you know week -- last night doesn't Connecticut talking new 150 youth coach is saying. Hey let's try to hit less. You know you've got cute with third -- in the third graders practice and that programs have been a few times now only as a third graders -- once a week. Because of the brain is really not meant to be hit as often as we've been doing your. And so -- so the real put I think of the biggest efforts that we've made today. Our prevention that's what we do to our nonprofit sports legacy student and be you. Is always full speed ahead trying to find treatment for the disease it'll assess that could not that does not fly with football -- that we get it -- it is flying actually and I third grade high school college going to be can. We you have to have the long discussion about what we're seeing in these -- you have to show them that we have thirteen brains of former NFL players passed away twelve of them have this disease we have for college athletes organizers just went to college in four of them have this disease -- 1617. That's bad and that's bad news I think -- evidence that we've -- the game long -- never really been thinking about how often we have people had what we do with that.

Right it's that we we talked about this the other day in its guys don't tackle anymore right at spear an entity of this beard and -- one number called spirit but from. Maybe a third greatest -- from say 87 eighth ninth grade. They learned dispute they learned to use this their head as a missile the bodies of missile. And they don't wrap up which is fine you don't have to wrap up if you bring the -- down -- right. You glorify I'd do it we do it in the hitters the guy's -- to throw there bodies we watch and hard knocks them. If you go -- special teams and throw your body at somebody in your little if you make it to you you you lot of the man coach goes nuts and slept in the -- and make the team you make the leak -- wedge boost its its really glorified and that's a big you gotta you gotta. Uphill climb well.

It is but it's getting -- the easiest piece of information it youth coaches really understand and it's funny when you step back and think about it is there's one thing that we have in place now for youth baseball players that we used to not -- in place next pitch counts when you think about the fact that with ten year old kids we actually clicker in the count how many times we throw the ball because we don't want -- their -- elbows to wear out they can't play baseball later. Well we've never count of how often we hit a -- And if we started thinking about it that way for will have to Chester baseball why shouldn't we have counts frowned as we at the Manhattan.

Obviously Steve Smith kept a count and that was perhaps the most gut wrenching -- aspect of the -- that. Bernie Goldberg did he took twelve minutes to write down. What he did as a football player. And the number of hits in two days and practices leading up to a game where it's only forty more times as a full back. Sixteen times. A year I mean it's it it adds up its cumulative.

Yeah it is no question that you know what we're talking 2030000. -- the head over some of these guys career and that's just extraordinary and and and moderately in and -- says living room. You couldn't ask for better witness yeah for your case counselor I got a chance to sit down -- couple weeks ago I mean he's been in his living room. For the last few years can't move except for every three months we ask who it is to -- cleaned out of but -- fast asleep next whom every night. Because over the over the night he chokes on his own saliva and just to clean it out. And it's just the other going broken it's -- heart wrenching to Steve's these teams are a great guy still has a great personality are still can didn't make a ton of money no -- play before the big money so it's and it's a real tragedy to it to see how the disease with -- we talk about this all the time in a -- he'll mark Kelso -- why don't. It doesn't -- NFL adopt better.

Furcal they have -- or Chris would have been for our zenith next run in price that is happening instituted I don't know yet --

The scene -- helmets and approved helmet it's on the field and FL teams on the field lot of local teams and and -- is actually a sponsor of our educational programs which is it really nicely and they try to they say go out there and tell people not to use their helmet as a weapon they say go out there and tell people not to get so much of one of the region that has -- now. And it's like yeah. Yet that two levels right now I think that's that might be that there were Dell model -- zenith is why doesn't have foam on the inside it kinda has more of an air cell type of concept so that they can. Worked both on the extreme forces or forces is the idea behind the NFL would never want soft -- no decisive met mark Kelso -- has given the talk and and he tried to it can talk about that idea. The problem with softer helmets is that what's really great about our helmets when they collide when -- slide off each other and you -- data they don't slide off -- you're listening we but you you know if they didn't -- any equipment like rugby players we wouldn't have this problem no it would be different probably might have some guys die from skull fractures but he definitely not have guys able to get him a thousand times we've always concussions we're.

With -- whiskey -- techs who wants to know giving crystal sticker on take phone calls yes with all lines are open 6177790850. Toll free 8885250850. Crystal taker phone calls. You touched briefly on the the need to rest. After a concussion after a head injury. But it's not just physical rest is well you says caught -- Everest re what does that mean.

What that means is that you you know your brain basically cannot produce the same amount of energy the cells can be seen him energy and so not only do you need to rest physically not go to the gym not -- practice. But also you could can't be studying hard you can't be stressing your brain.

Like staying up all night really cramming for an attack us thinking that what you're saying you're gonna show you how exactly is John Kerry offered sign out not to say yeah it's -- just. An -- and do we have any idea what the parameters are that of how long you shouldn't be in the gym how long you shouldn't really try to utilize your brain now I've ever every for.

Everybody it's really individuals certainly a couple days and that's why that they of the new bill to pass the state says -- have to see -- medical professional be clear because they can help determine some people need a few days some people only weeks or months it's like every injury is different everybody's different.

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I have a question -- I think it's absolutely wonderful to restart it's been done but I haven't cracked it has. Crossed over to other sports mainly hockey without the banging and I look at all these little kids that are in. You know these are hockey group. That my neighbor next door her son has actually had a couple of concussions. And he's had.

Men yet we we have publisher question we have crossed over into hockey and -- kind of priority especially in the fall. With so many more kids playing but we identified the first case of CTV. In hockey player Reggie Fleming objectionable Perot and who who died in his early seventies with dementia but was diagnosed as bipolar in his forties and had very destructive adult life. And we actually just got another break in -- very high profile former hockey player so certainly CT is a risking concussions are big risk and hockey. Odd that the solving the problem was different though we're not saying it was hockey -- practice so it's not like telling coaches stop ramming the kids into each other it's more. The idea of when you institute checking how do you penalize -- of the head. We actually advised we're at the end NCAA rules committee and hockey to to increase the penalties for hits and had this.

Have you worked things for a day in the National Football League and could waive your sector and make 45 or six things happen. The way they need to happen help -- why would they be what the priorities be.

What you know it's funny the NFL's actually made it'll almost the changes that we've asked for you and ended couple rule change they made in the last season including. Increase the penalties for helmet to helmet hits. And you can no longer blind you know intentionally block somebody blind side and above the shoulders and social -- helmets -- that -- the biggest priority. But we also -- the wedge earlier they've now banned the -- and that's interesting six eye's view wedge buster myself right and Alison Singer called the suicide odd reason it was a craziest thing in the world to bill. And insult what I would love to see the NFL do now I think their biggest and that they can do and they are doing it is and working on how tight changed the youth gain because what what I've been preaching to them and I'm -- adviser -- I -- PA is that. If you wanna reduce the risk of CT for a -- god does not necessarily what they do an average of three years NFL it's what would have to come into the lead north. And in the NFL's what everybody listens to in terms of recommendations and so that's sort talking about mandatory concussion education asked on what hitting --

It stands to reason if you make it to the NFL you've been the baddest of the bad probably from junior high school high school to college as well right so your points -- good -- that that they're gonna a lot of hits prior. You making onto an NFL field right you've got to be huge --

You've got at least eight years under your belt probably twelve or fifteen now and then -- and because the brilliant young brain is far more vulnerable. We don't we actually found this disease and an eighteen year old who passed away. And so every NFL player that we see getting this may have started as a teenager and we have other young guys passed away from one. We actually it's a medical legal cases of the lawsuit involves so we can't.

Say -- isn't Seinfeld thing and and just write these guys who reach Ciena fell. Are all hitters you know and -- in Indian -- youth football high school there's a couple hitters and every team in colleges six or eight it is on every unit. In prose there is you know there's ten or eleven on every unit that on both -- all hitters and have been hitters since they were in nine or ten. The in the number of shots to the head is just. Countless you couldn't added up for a guy you know Kevin turner the full black forbidden -- back now they'll ask. He could count in defeat you know -- which about a we could remember every it or even even -- coming concussion he said.

Odd jobs sell the vineyard John your next Ike -- I wanna thank you got so much for doing you know earth were they leading the way up about whether it -- when it started rookie -- you can go on HBO on demand. And see this piece okay it's in -- believe me it's worth your time it's like when he minutes and -- issues. And it ends with a Lou -- situation the -- Bosnia is jealous and blows your mind but I jobs are you --

Well I lost a brother to airlift that two years ago it's 45. And he had been a longtime soccer player that policies -- At Vanderbilt and then use the first professional snowboarders. And would. Actually -- the second employee Burton snowboard. And it was certainly aware of that connects and he didn't think it -- disease you thought it was at least two maybe Braden and anyway I just wanted to thank you guys become a -- that -- you know. You've got in my very broad -- again but dude I might have thought you have you know. It's basically first what they can -- could be you know make a lot of enemies to --

That was kind of fascinating that Italian. Soccer. That the scourge in the show one guy after another these are stars these icons in Italy. And the problem was so big government got involved and and and mandated this position that you talk to with. With with these because find -- that was going on here why why we lose analyst soccer stars. In you think. Did you do you determine definitively that it's from adding so many balls.

Well it's it. We assume we've based on these three cases we assume that the reason why there had every six times higher than -- population one in the -- common is is concussions matters. And so you know it. When you see that sort of evidence everyone I always assumed what I saw that to five years ago that it was he was trauma but I did he ought to doctor -- You know whose whose brilliant genius to to kind of put it all together.

I've seen this show a sports science and always measure things in impacted net is there any way to compare heading a soccer ball at sixty miles an hour verses. -- and a wedge within -- belt and helmet to helmet thing is is it -- better about the same.

It's probably it's it's and are not as bad as breaking away it was probably the same is coming off line of scrimmage is -- yet so we talk what -- you throw a ball tickets had hundreds of times in practice over here that's like downplaying the offensive line and coming -- and people that all the time.

It's sessions mattered to him and we -- pulled exec Steve Smith and Kevin turner. Linebackers who had just haven't these collisions on every play. Right and that's why I think it's kind of cumulative trauma versus your Troy Aikman and Steve -- who get ten concussions but are never touch during the season -- green jerseys on and so way the guys sourcing.

Most often the -- make -- linemen both sides of the ball linebackers fullbacks.

Let's talk to lead down in Rhode Island -- Unix with the Chris --

Value morning. One back for your -- Or visit which is basically it's rated ninth -- and -- violent. And one of things that we didn't know we altercation mr. that we actually Alpine athletic trainer. Because you're so concerned about corruption.

The what does he do what does he do just tell kids you -- you've got a concussion sit down. Think what what.

Now what are their respective spec of their name athletic training group that -- not quite school. So you know you com. -- They -- every game Iraq regarding they take their -- everything like that but what if they want to take away the aspect of a coach. Deciding. Acute that it spelt wrong.

Would you be surprised -- of down the road and I know this will be expensive and probably not practical this point that four. A certain segment. The athletic population they're some sort of brain -- baseline the you can that measure you know two years or three years of their career after the had a couple of apparent. -- dramas.

That's a that's a great question and I think it's very -- in this program we got athletic trainer but in terms of a baseline. Unfortunately for CTE we don't know what that test would be that would be useful to show the progression of the disease because we can't diagnosis in the living person right so that's really our problem when you.

You'll see that brown protein that we saw on the program of the night when a person's a lot there's no way to scam that. While they're up and running.

reality working on our with a good degree at Harvard Medical School with great imaging group trying to find the number we're we're most -- all of plunging gas or battery of tests to find out what can actually show. How -- diseases is moving in a living person you do your fellow wrestlers and -- pals from the WW EU. Calling in and donating yeah I've got a 25 former wrestler. Guys like Kevin -- guys like Mick Foley signed up for the live along so you'll be getting those soon. I lost another one though last week to a guy lance -- 29 years all the work with seven years younger -- yeah --

The incidents of what I'm about to explain to you still very much an obstacle in your path. Text her bad ass from the 617. All the soccer moms are on the attack again what the hell. You by the various football so -- up mentality of waiting a little bit or. Not.

I do find -- way I think the only place I still see it isn't in chat rooms and in blogs but no -- that no one says Republican and we'll say it is always licenses are kids what's your stage name but experts Harvard. Chris Harvard. Annual and Harvard and teachers Collins yes major face I -- never paid MySpace as you can hide it in effect at I'm Brian -- the craziest thing you do in the and a Bryant. Before we give the Nobel -- one yes the craziest thing you -- in the -- Japan is sport with a razor I and never cut myself and I did I did go off the top rope through tables on the floor I did a once attacked someone with this with a skeleton. Then recited a lesson is that donate that yeah. A publicist I admit that brides and -- move.

If Brian I don't got a huge fan of the show I heard you got on the subject last week and I think about -- date they had Chris. Are very yacht and away but it did you see -- I have not checked and on and on demand that our spam analog I get up. As a former high school football player mixed martial artists are received a number of -- about a dozen well. And I was wondering air along the line theories -- if there -- any proactive that someone who received a number editors and take a back and get that down taken these.

Question that's a great question and unfortunately the answer is because this these diseases from -- little study right there's no -- you can take nothing you can do that we can tell you actually slow -- disease or prevent -- we tell you stop getting hit in the head and that's about it and that's -- recruit so hard for these studies -- argue maybe should be -- you dot edu slash CS -- center for the study of traumatic encephalopathy. And cost to donate your brain.

Here's another of the anonymous bad bad asses. From the for a one these guys make millions of dollars -- them they know what they're getting into.

Isn't isn't it. A simple adjustment I mean it's like a simple thing you just have to see that child down. After you get an injured it is simply one of the things that of that argument always an intriguing because the fact is that everybody you know. This isn't about NFL players this is about kids in the fact there -- exposed to the same breath from -- the same game. But the kids aren't old enough to accept this risk created the idea they know what they're getting into and nine year old does not know what they're getting into. When they sign up for football 'cause they think it looks cool on TV they wanna -- the pads in the one you know.

The ultimate not told not to Nick -- though mark Ingram has a concussion. It's about changing the culture from the coaches and and that to me is going to be most frustrating thing that we see him you see -- and at west west yeah and hard knocks out. In national some soccer nobody has sucked right -- talked about these -- and actress.

Yeah -- that was it was of it has been years of fighting that but it's it's taken. Got a very credible people guys like NFL players -- signed up for every donation program like Matt -- from Harvard dot Lofa Tatupu Sean Morey from Marshall Field's been doing an amazing job speaking out on this. And the coaches listened to those guys and so they listen to other coaches who are start to talk about this and say we give you more sensible about this.

You hear about retired recently retired veterans. The Rodney Harrison comes to mind -- Tedy Bruschi called you with worry in their voice yeah and say I mean I can't imagine if I'm -- scarcity as an example the way he played the game. Sit down a watch that piece on HBO what you and your research Brenda and of of exposed -- deceit. And not be scared. To death.

They knew about what the next keys right ten years I -- and then the darkness is all there yeah I have an eleven year veteran called me yesterday to sign it was exude a very prominent position. Who said. I wanna sign up and the problem is I cannot in all my wife I'll tell you I don't remember any birthdays and don't remember where he's after he forgets is kids' birthdays he forgets most day to day activities you still functional left to work. But he knows that things -- falling apart forms are signed up for the registry and sadly though we do my part because I got to open don't get as soon but a more. Really it has nothing to do with him he's done enemies you can look at -- as -- help him know the idea is -- with this registry we're gonna be citing people and they're real ones we -- clinical trials on drugs they're -- be the ones that we you know or put -- is not just as Brian again you -- is we're getting we're getting his coup plot is gonna forget their commitment to come in and be studied it and try to find that treatment and so it's not about just studying people's brains -- funny treatment --

Texture says is this the Chris Liwienski from the WW weak -- substance -- the death of a guy like him and his wife Diana. But spent quicktime up all lateral we'll talk with Chris we can back.