08-19-08 Pitch counts

Is the question I probably should have directed at Mike hall Michael Felger is he's the big brewers and just happened in Milwaukee last night. The brewers go out and and they make. Maybe the best. Trade. Trade acquisition in baseball means CC sabathia as then. Is an off unbelievable -- my point he he's an unbelievable okay. Even better than Manny has been in LA or bay has been here CC sabathia has been unbelievable. So winning the preakness last CC sabathia pitching. Five complete -- that's the complete games Marty last night. They let him hit in the he comes out in the he throws a 130. Pitches last. In what was pretty comfortable win. And and you look at the numbers and you -- I I know -- and I know he's been great. -- back to that how many bullets in the gun theory you know how many pitches -- renowned arm. And -- the hell is he doing it in the ninth inning. Although big win what's you don't hit in the eighth what you don't pitch -- seen the forceful ahead and did you see the score in the ninth inning that was.

Those bottles or not a three. I didn't mind it too well but here's the thing and and that is where the old timers say dammit I loved -- doing because they want to see these kids grow 12530. Pitches. 130 as opposed to 160. -- 155. Wasn't a dusty baker situation last night.

They win nine to three -- nine to two when they sent him out for the ninth inning. And he throws a 130 pitches I I I think it's I think it's stupid managing and I know how and why is that stupid I mean. -- why I need him out there to throw a 130 pitches when you're up nine detail.

Okay what was the bullpen situation like two games previous three games previous maybe the bullpen needed a rest. And here's a guy. Here's a guy who who's -- a big kid he's really been. And he could handle it like got a baby sees he's about I I I would disagree with. Last year I spotlight that's -- from the -- But I got he's been over used I don't regulars you know I think both those guys. Sabathia and Carmona. I think they came up short against the Red Sox because the moment. Got to I think it was a mental thing more than a physical.

That I I I think it had components of ball. And I know the old timers and I I 130 pitches that on the can only a 130 I'm not guys this year do you think pro 130 pitches and okay okay -- back that I. And I don't know we even have -- that's the we have access to that sort of thing I wonder anybody's top 130 this year besides. As if if he is if he's burned out. In two years or a year or this post season right you have an argument but. I'm glad when the no hitter I'm I'm glad you -- there. They're out -- he was up there but I'm I'm glad. That he was able to the finished the game the complete game now. Has lots has lost its shy you know right because it's a stupid. Statistic -- a us open but Graham Russell stupid about it because why white as complete game matter. What what does it what does it signify what does it what does it give the anyway what it -- what matters is a win is a win is a win. What difference does -- make the race at golden niners or not humiliate handed the apple not.

Not I disagree this is this is gone back to a movie 300 okay this sets up at about her ability it's it's a bit about stamina. It says something about being a warrior and sports terms being a sports warrior. And yes insatiable open I don't think the complete game as stupid as a matter of fact I think there's too much special as nation and baseball here. I think I have everybody row. Complete games but if you have the ability to do if you're conditioned for it. More power to you good for Ned yells for letting his starting pitcher. Finish what he started -- other guy who who throws too many complete games for no apparent reason why -- I think I think it's great what do you gain by. That he had he had.

It got there and do it look at look at him over the last 45 years he has the ability to pitch don't want. That's what you do any plans war. Unlike that I -- out -- not everybody should do it.

I have a guy who would disagree with you completely and that would then and I think two guys would be Farrell and Francona -- they did they -- of they -- of the of the mind that. You know it is idiotic I mean short of -- you that you got a no hitter you're trying to to teach self throw short of that it's idiotic to ask. A pitcher to do that because you don't have to -- more that that to me that there is no more overrated stat in complete game.

Why that I think it's I think it's underrated and you know doing a disservice to guys. Who did it routinely in the sixties and -- when that game was totally different. I I mean I got to the agents specialist nation and that does drive -- etiquette -- why -- a special ovation good when you're going from you think about it. You've got -- I'm talking about hall of famers here -- But you have a lot of marriage you have Bob Gibson you have an -- facts you want to give you want to take away. You want to take this away from the game and put somebody who is. 20% of what they are 50% of what they are 80% of what they are.

Well there was that same sort of and and how you understand there's every -- there where. The but closer quote on quote there wasn't up the Mariano Rivera. The Jonathan Papelbon Award those types of players available cynical back in fact if I look at his career I say. The fact that he only had a five year dominant period may be directly attributable to the fact that he threw too many --

I know I disagree with that because he got it and you look at the first few years of his career with he was all right he was pretty good. And I think he had the ability to pitch that high level on the first few years of his career he would have done it. He didn't have a point and have the numbers. In the beginning of his career and -- got those five years. So that wasn't what I don't think with the pitching situation I don't think it was that -- situation with just now he's able to throw strikes he wasn't able to throw strikes before.

I -- and I know I used to have the same discussion with our dear departed frantic -- You know who literally would throw for relief innings five relief innings and didn't understand why people couldn't do that nowadays. Well as I used to say with Dick when we have this argument the game's not the --

And and now I want to be clear here I'm not saying everybody. Should go out there and throw complete games. But in the rare cases that we see today in the rare case of a Roy Halladay. The right in the rare case of a CC sabathia since he's gotten to Milwaukee. If you have the ability to do it you have the willingness to do it a lot of guys don't now.

it.

If I'm Ned you know. My entire season probably swings. On CC sabathia is pitching. And I don't take any chances went. I think he took huge chance with a last night you're right he's a big -- horse you know he'd take that ball out there and throw it to the side of a barn for yet. Ball what yet. You know you hit the middle of September in your battling for a playoff spot CC says. My arms just old tired here and you think back to back nine to two lead in the ninth inning. And you ascendancy -- back out to throw a 130 pitches for advocate dolls or is that extra eighteen. Eighteen pitches and make that their I think -- cumulative effect yes I did a really deal I truly believe that. I think that there's only so many pitches that you can you can you know throw up their high level. No matter how great one of the year Josh Beckett or CC sabathia or Cliff Lee or anybody else you want to name yeah I think there's a finite number that's enough arm.

I think. To a degree I can understand. That philosophy for certain pitchers but I also think we've gone a little soft. -- we we've gotten all add up too cutesy. -- a little -- new wage. When it comes to. Treating handling pitchers all pitchers not the same some -- R I I agree subjects some only to be handle that way but I I think it's great. If a guy can throw a complete game. -- you can count on him to give you 12535. Pitches. And it is not throwing out his arm it's not throwing out -- shoulder.

And I've I've heard Michael Felger make this argument. That Terry Francona and John Farrell don't let Daisuke Matsuzaka throwing up pitches because in Japan. You know he'd go out there and 4253035. Pitches but it was different in Japan he was basically pitching one day a week. Every every team in the league has Monday's off. Yeah they have six man rotation you basically throw one day a week in Japan. Are you blonde let him throw 12530. Pitches you think this this coaching staff Terry John Farrell whoever. You'd think they'd let him consistently block -- do that they -- was anything that and and CC sabathia is pitched 27 games this year. In 23 of the 27 he's thrown a hundred or more pitches. Ned ghost is gonna look back on this thing at some points I -- one heck of a safety eighteen I could've saved him.

You know what it is still not even even though he's throwing complete games in and right -- throwing complete games. Have it easy compared to what it was and how we we've had a Forman -- it we have had a five man rotation. For about it pretty much like for about 38 years. So. You've got. You had guys in a five man rotation. Recently 25 years ago. Steve Carlton strong 315320. Innings. Nolan Ryan is in the 270s to eighties to nineties so those guys won't even approach those numbers and they're still. Going out they're giving you an occasional complete game so I think it it it to get down.

I just look at here just for the -- of last year when Josh Beckett was the man. When he went twenty in seven for the Boston -- what are -- 200 or 190 the most pitches he threw. In a game all year last year was 118.

So and it's. In his innings for the season what what they were -- sub 200 wasn't. --

And and they let him throw 1181. Time now he got into triple digits and pitches a lot -- he he was -- race. But he didn't from 230 in any game he threw 118 once he threw a 11712. Wants.

Let's -- you know at Augusta the problem I have -- that I think group think is a dangerous thing so it is John Farrell and in Terry Francona. Have a philosophy about pitching and and Theo Epstein has a philosophy about pitching that's why it worked for them. But don't tell me it's idiotic if somebody else doesn't do the same way you do that's the problem I have with with. Stolen bases and -- still had stupid. That's not the way you do it but I can show you somebody who has done it differently and won a.

A champion Michael and 92 lead in the ninth inning. And and there are guys going out -- control I don't know how many pitches he threw in the again they've got a nine to two lead wide you have to have him back out there. First all ought to Pinchot forum in the eighth I wouldn't of had him batting in the eight like they did he hit the bottom of the eighth inning YC back out there in the ninth.

See what you're doing what you're doing is what you accuse the colors of doing and that is you are your commenting without the information that you -- You have no idea. What the status of his bullpen. Was in the past three --

I'd be willing to bet that it wasn't about have a single guy available to not not a single guy but about the bullpen it was probably tax. Well let me ask you this if if CC sabathia had had to -- Terry Francona -- clunker. Company has but let's just say that he you're gonna tell me that that no matter how many runs he gave up. Idealist when it set sorry CC you gotta keep Colin. My ball my bullpen is spent here or what you said Monday -- are different argument I tried talking about winning the game my point is that -- somebody who could pitch the ninth and nine to two lead yet he had somebody who -- got in through those three outs. Other than CC's of vertigo that tired and -- ball.